Subject: Aha! The three-man 767 rears its ugly head...

From: [email-masked] (Robert Dorsett)
Date: 20 Dec 92 16:08:08 CST

I knew I wasn't going mad...  In a recent post, I commented on a three-man
767.  Karl hadn't heard of it, which surprised me, so I went looking for
it--and couldn't find it--which surprised me even more.  I finally ran across
this blurb.

I have no recollection of a picture of one of these critters, though.  Can
someone clear up this matter?

FI, 3/20/82, p. 685:

"So far, most of the "live" flight-test experience has been with a three-
pilot-configured flightdeck on the first four 767s.  [...]  All 757s, and 
the fifth and many subsequent 767s will have a two-pilot-configured cockpit.  
In the two-man flightdeck, the early 767's conventional bank of engine 
instruments on the center panel is replaced by the two CRT screens.  These are 
the display element of the engine-indicating/crew-alerting system (EICAS),
which replaces normal engine instruments and continually scans the aircraft 
systems for abnormalities, relaying any findings."

I interpret that as meaning the three-man ships had electromechanical in-
struments, which means there had to be a real, live, flight engineer.

I am certain three of the four were retrofitted to two-man configuration,
but am almost certain the first one lingers on, somewhere.  Memory suggests
it's Boeing's 767 testbed.  The maddening thing is, I read an article within
the last two or three years, which went into all this in great detail, but
I can't remember where it was published...  This article seemed to indicate
that the customer (UAL, I THINK) which initially wanted three-man ships saw
the two-man configuration, fell in love with it, and abandoned all plans for
three-man operation.

R.

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From: [email-masked] (Hayes N. Press)
Date: 26 Dec 92 00:01:47 CST

>someone clear up this matter?

I don't know if I can clear this up but I can assure you that you are not 
going mad, unless madness is common in aerospace professionals.

The original design for the 767 was indeed for a 3 person-crew (even though 
the anthropometrics were probably 3 man-crew biased).  There was an extensive 
article done in Harvard Business Review (sorry I don't recall the year but it 
is pre-1990) on the design/production aspects.  The article dealt with the 
management approaches used to determine whether the production line of the 
first 30 or so, 767 should be stopped and retrofited "in-position" or whether 
the line should be allowed to continue with the first ~30 being 3 person-crew 
and the ~31st and then on being the two person variety.  In summary, the 
decision was to build the first ~30 as 3 person-crew and then if (when) they 
got certification of a two person configuration they would tear-out the third 
station and make the other necessary changes needed by use of "RAMS" teams.  
These teams would then have only one learning curve on the modifications 
needed, rather than ~30 since the aircraft on the line would all be at 
different stages of production.  

There was even one airline (which I don't recall either, but it may have been 
UAL or someone in the South Pacific) that accepted their aircraft in the 
three person configuration, whether that configuration has since been changed 
or not I'm also not so sure.  

The extra flight station being removed from the original design may also 
explain the roominess of the 767 cockpit.  It is by far the largest I have 
been in with more free space and comfort for the jumpseat passenger.

Speaking only for myself.

Hayes N. Press
e-mail  address:   [email-masked]
phone (804) 864-2715    fax (804) 864-7793
Good old Postal Service: Lockheed Engineering and Sciences Co.
                                      144 Research Drive  MS 156A
                                      Hampton, Virginia  23666

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From: [email-masked] (Mitchell Weiss)
Date: 29 Dec 92 22:53:48 PST

>it--and couldn't find it--which surprised me even more.  I finally ran across
Harvard MBA folks publish an entire case study on the changeover from
a three-man cockpit to a two man cockpit.  It seems that the initial
production runs of the 767's were three-man.  Now, as a case study
they never said what Boeing did.  Did they change them before sale?

I don't know.  I know little about airlines, except of course
how to buckle a seat belt and pray that my luggage arrives.  :-)

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From: [email-masked] (Karl Swartz)
Date: 29 Dec 92 22:53:52 PST

>someone clear up this matter?

Yesterday I flew back from Chicago on a 757, and since United takes
advantage of the common rating for flight crews on 757s and 767s I
figured the guys up front might be able to answer this question.

They agreed that none of the United 767s have a three-person flight
deck, including the second 767 built (N601UA; the first is still with
Boeing) which one of the guys had been on recently.  As far as either
could recall these aircraft were delivered without the third position
though they pointed out that the luxuriously roomy cockpit was because
the original design did have the third position, and one mentioned
that the first simulators had the FE panel.

Note that the first 767 actually delivered (to United) was the ninth
built.  The second one (again, Boeing kept the first) was delivered to
United six months later, time which could well have been spent removing
the FE panel as well as restoring the aircraft after the flight tests.

-- 
Karl Swartz	|INet	[email-masked]		
1-415/854-3409	|UUCP	uunet!decwrl!ditka!kls
		|Snail	2144 Sand Hill Rd., Menlo Park CA 94025, USA
 Send sci.aeronautics.airliners submissions to [email-masked]

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From: Tony Heatwole <[email-masked]>
Date: 30 Dec 92 12:55:24 PST

I have a reprint of the Harvard Business School case study on
the Boeing 767 (#9-688-040, Rev. 2/89).  It's a fascinating
look at technology, manufacturing, and the culture of the
Boeing Corporation.  With regard to the 767 crew size:

    "In August 1981, eleven months before the first scheduled
    delivery of Boeing's new airplane, the 767, Dean Thornton,
    program's vice president - general manager, faced a critical 
    decision.  For several years, Boeing had lobbied the FAA
    for permission to build wide-bodied aircraft with two-, rather
    than three person cockpits.  Permission had been granted late
    in July.  Unfortunately, the 767 had originally been designed
    with a three-person cockpit, and 30 of those planes were
    already in various stages of production.

    " . . . Engineers concluded that the thirty-first 767 was
    still far enough from completion that it, and all subsequent
    planes, could be built with two-person cockpits without
    modification.  Thirty planes, however, were in relatively
    advanced stages of production.  Some were nearly ready to
    to be rolled out and flown; others had complete cockpits but
    were not yet tested; others had bare cockpits without any
    electronics installed.  But since all thirty were being built 
    according to the plane's original, three-person cockpit design,
    all would require some modification.

    " . . . Customers were notified of the additional cost and
    delivery delay they could expect on these thirty planes.  The
    impact was not large: a small percentage increase in costs and
    an average delay of one month from promised delivery dates.
    All but one airline chose to have their planes built with 
    two-person cockpits."

So, the interesting question is, what was the *one* airline, and
what has become of their 3-person cockpit 767s?  Were these
planes later converted to 2-person cockpits?  I don't know the
answers, but I'm curious.

Interestingly, Boeing decided to complete the first 30 767s as
originally designed, for 3-person cockpits.  Then, they converted
the 30 (less the set to be delivered as 3-person cockpit) to
2-person operation as a batch.  This avoided the safety and
manufacturing problems of trying to convert a number of planes in
different stages of manufacture.

Tony Heatwole
Gaithersburg, MD
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked] (Karl Swartz)
Date: 30 Dec 92 13:27:32 PST

In article <[email-masked]> Tony Heatwole <[email-masked]> writes:

>    decision ...

>answers, but I'm curious.

Here are the first thirty-one 767s:

    ln   sn	 model	first flt	customer	reg'n
    --	-----	-------	---------	--------	-----
     1	22233	767-200	 8/26/81	Boeing		N767BA
     2	21862	767-222	11/ 4/81	United		N601UA
     3	21863	767-222	11/24/81	United		N602UA
     4	21864	767-222	12/19/81	United		N603UA
     5	21865	767-222	 1/18/82	United		N604UA
     6	22213	767-232	 2/19/82	Delta		N101DA
     7	21866	767-222	 3/25/82	United		N605UA
     8	22307	767-223	10/ 6/82	American	N301AA
     9	21867	767-222	 7/20/82	United		N606UA
    10	21868	767-222	 8/13/82	United		N607UA
    11	21869	767-222	 7/19/82	United		N608UA
    12	22214	767-232	 8/27/82	Delta		N102DA
    13	21870	767-222	 9/17/82	United		N609UA
    14	22564	767-231	10/15/82	TWA		N601TW
    15	21871	767-222	10/30/82	United		N610UA
    16	22517	767-233	10/ 9/82	Air Canada	C-GAUB
    17	22215	767-232	 9/25/82	Delta		N103DA
    18	22681	767-209	11/23/82	China Airlines	B-1836
    19	22308	767-223	11/ 1/82	American	N302AA
    20	21872	767-222	 1/27/83	United		N611UA
    21	22565	767-231	11/13/82	TWA		N602TW
    22	22518	767-233	11/ 9/82	Air Canada	C-GAUE
    23	22309	767-223	11/16/82	American	N303AA
    24	22692	767-277	 5/ 4/83	Ansett		VH-RMD
    25	22310	767-223	 1/18/83	American	N304AA
    26	22216	767-232	11/24/82	Delta		N104DA
    27	22217	767-232	12/17/82	Delta		N105DA
    28	22693	767-277	 5/20/83	Ansett		VH-RME
    29	22566	767-231	12/14/82	TWA		N603TW
    30	22567	767-231	 1/28/83	TWA		N604TW
    31	22218	767-232	11/10/82	Delta		N106DA

I know United's are two-man and would bet the same for American,
Delta, and TWA.  Probably Air Canada.  That leaves China Airlines
and Ansett.  I suspect the latter as I recall hearing about some
Australian airline having three-man 767s.  Any Aussie friends know
for sure?  Do their later 767s have three-man crews as well?

BTW, I believe all thirty-one of these are still with their original
owners with the possibly exception of TWA's -- some TWA 767s were
sold earlier this year though I'm not sure if they were the oldest
or newest ones.