Subject: Repost: Future of NeXTSTEP
From: paulk (Paul Kerrios)
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 93 08:36:24 EDT

> Telling me that a Chevette is a better car than a Lexus 400 because the
> Chevette sold more is not an argument I want to take up. Sure the former has
> better gas mileage, is cheaper to buy, service, and insure, and has more
> places that can service it (and probably more customizing vendors supporting
> it) - but does that make it "better".
>
> [Captain & Tenille vs Coltrane example omitted.]

This is one of the better points I've seen during this whole "Is NeXTstep The
Best Thing You've Ever Seen, Or Is It Just a Brief Ray Of Light Which Is About
To Accidentally Ram a Large Pointy Stick Through Its Own Skull?" debate.

Luxury cars definitely have their place.  Rolls-Royces, Lexii, and Lamborghinis
wouldn't exist without that niche.

But it does mean that it's a niche product, and will remain that way.

It's hard to stretch the car analogy very far, because cars are, by and large,
compatible with each other.  They all take the same kind of input (gasoline)
and produce the same kind of output (heat, noise, and most of the time,
movement).  They even take the same accessories---there's nothing stopping you
from carrying Grey Poupon in your Pinto hatchback, or putting dangle-dice in a
Maserati.  I have even seen a Ford LTD with a full wet-bar in it.

Sure, there are differences.  It's hard to find someone to repair a Rolls
engine.  But Rolls goes out of its way to help its customers---sometimes to
great lengths.  But just about anyone can fix a VW Beetle with enough duct tape
and/or explosives.

To actually make the car analogy work with computers, you would have to
recognize a few basic differences.

First of all, the current push on user-interface copyrights and patented
software means that each brand of car is driven differently:

     *	Rolls-Royce:  Comes with a chauffeur.
     *	Lamborghini:  Stylized aircraft-style stick for throttle and turning,
	plus pedals for brakes.
     *	VW Beetle:  A helm for steering, and a lever to control acceleration.
     *	Ford Pinto:  Steering is controlled by a small gerbil under the hood.

Then there's the matter of the programs.  Programs are the fuel of the
computer, so let's consider:

     *	Rolls-Royce:  High-grade kerosene laced with gold oxides.
     *	Lamborghini:  Plutonium.
     *	VW Beetle:  Hay.
     *	Ford Pinto:  Anything sufficiently explosive.

If cars were built like this, I guarantee you that Rolls-Royce and Lamborghini
would be out of business pronto.  The reason they aren't is because there are
standards which they can adhere to.  If you can drive a stick-shift Pinto, you
can drive a Rolls.  There are some differences, but the point is, within three
minutes, you can be driving it, and if it breaks down, you have a better chance
of being able to get it fixed.

But where this analogy really breaks down, I think, is that I don't consider
this a debate of luxury.

POSIX, ANSI C, and X are as much of a standard as gasoline, steering wheels and
tires are in the car industry.

But the NeXT---well, it's weird.  The NeXT is like a converted 1985 compact
truck with air-foil and dual spoilers, that now runs on hydrogen, uses a 
tofu-based polymer for its tires, and has a teleport feature which works 
reliably most of the time, except that once in a while, you inexplicably wind
up in Toledo, whether you were teleporting or not.  It comes in a choice of 
65,000 psychedelic colors, but the left windshield wiper is broken on every
model.  And it sells for the same price as a Lamborghini.

It wouldn't be so bad, except that the company you bought it from seems to be
more interested in marketing the car rather than supporting those who already
bought one.

NeXTstep is good.  Certainly.  It's not perfect, but it has some great ideas.
The problem is that if I use all those cool NeXTstep features, I'm pretty much
stuck with NeXTstep.  I can't write a program that will run on someone's Sun,
much less one that will run on my parents' Windows box.  So even if I *can*
write a program in 20 minutes flat, it does no good except to other NeXTstep
users.  Who, by and large, are mostly high-stress, get-it-done-last-week MIS
people in Fortune 1000 firms, pro-drug, libertarian, stand on a soapbox and 
talk about invidualism and how it sets the soul free, I used to be crazy 
before I become wealthy and now I'm just eccentric people, and college students
who pay $2.50 for every $500 NeXT wants from everyone else.

This does not tend to produce a widely-used system.  And because the market is
so small, it tends to drive software prices 'way up.  Which also tends to
reduce the use of the system.  The less a system is used, the less influential
it is, and the less likely it will survive in the long run.

Think about what would happen if someone came out with an integrated IB-like
program for C++ and Windows SDK, or for C++ and X.  Think about what would
happen if someone came up with an auxiliary server that translated PostScript
to X calls.  NeXT's niche market would be eaten away, and its piece of the pie
will get smaller and smaller.

I don't want to see that.  But I'm at a loss to see how anything else is going
to happen.  NeXT is a big black hole of information which occasionally emits
self-aggrandizing press releases.  They don't seem to give a damn about the
people who actually bought their software.  They're vague on when updates are
coming out, vague on whether bugs are fixed, vague on *what* bugs *have* been
fixed. . . .  The list goes on.

I like NeXTstep, but I fear for NeXT's future.  I'm not especially bitter about
it, like Mark seems to be from time to time.  I'm not especially rabid about
it, like zmonster.  But I like it.  I just hate the idea that I'm going to buy
into the Edsel of the computer world.  After all, the last system I really
genuinely liked was the Amiga. 

                 //=======================================\\
Paul Kerrios    /=/ Society has made me what I am today.  \=\
                \=\ Ok so maybe I just watch too much TV! /=/
                 \\=======[email-masked]=======//

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Subject: nextstep
From: abzero (Nick O'Conner)
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 93 04:01:44 EDT
Organization: [MindVox] / Phantom Access Technologies / (+1 800-MindVox)

Paul that was great :) 

A minor point of disagreement with the copyright and interface issues, since
MicroSoft won their lawsuit with Apple, it is not likely that look and feel 
copyrights will be enforceable.  From a glance at the old windows desktop
which I can't believe can possibly be anything other then Gates afraid of
being sued by Apple, which he of course was anyway, to the new Windows
4.0 deskset which was published in the trade publications and PC Week and 
looks nearly identical to a Mac interface.  I don't think there is anything
preventing Apple and MS from becoming nearly indistinuishable as time goes by,
Apple may spend 50 million in R&D, MS may sit back, wait 6 months and copy 
Apple, IBM may throw 20 companies at the project to analyze the situation and
then decide that the 5 companies on the left should buy the 5 companies on the
right, while the other 10 gestate for 10 years and sit on their research and
ultimately do nothing, and Steve Jobs may just wave his hands around and KNOW
that it HAS TO LOOK EXACTLY LIKE THIS OR HE'LL CRY, but it all comes down to
being very very similar, some just have prettier icons and interfaces then 
others :) 

NeXT always was and still is, a giant monument to Job's ego, which he's
strapped himself to and lit his hair on fire while screaming I'M RIGHT.

What's particularily sad is that he is right a lot of the time, but unable
to listen to others when he's wrong without first hitting his head against 
the pavement so many times without learning anything.

Back in 1985 which is almost 10 years, NeXT, Sun and SGI were all making 
their state of the art machines on a 68020 chip.  NeXT was also busy putting
together NeXTSTEP which niether Sun or SGI thought about, and nearly 10 years
later, Sun has junk which is gradually becoming useable, and SGI has a lot of
great graphics tools pasted on a bad System 5 unix. 

Sun got Sparc, SGI got MIPS, then later brought MIPS, NeXT installed a 68030
removed the hard drive, floppy drive, made it look like a cube and forced 
users to swap to a optical, then raised the price by 100% and announced they
were ready. 

Most of NeXT's hardware enhancements, were nothing more then removing the
crippling limitations Jobs decreed the hardware must have (for examples 1-500
see Apple, The Mac, the early days with no slots, ram, hard drives, or 
useability).  Since Jobs has always BEEN NeXT there wasn't anyone there to 
clean up after him or force him to make concessions to reailty and how some
people might need a computer to work. 

That's all it comes down to.  Jobs is brilliant at making leaps of vision and
coming up with great things.  He is totally blind to any practical use these
things might have, to summarize the book coming out next month, Steve Jobs
and the NeXT Big Thing, nobody at Next had any clue about why they were
builing the machine or what use it had, they were just doing it to make the 
ultimate system.  Which is fantastic.  That Jobs had complete control and the
ability to kill off any reason that might have conflicted with his desires, 
has made NeXT a strange and beautiful fluke that may or may not die, instead 
of the GUI that predated COSE by 7 years and supplaneted the commercial 
adaption of X, relegating that model to the educational and experimental 
field while NS ran on all RISC workstations. 

It is amazing to look at how many chances NeXT had to become the next microsoft
who have GREAT products instead of shit and see how many times Jobs has shot 
himself in both feet, hands, and head, then rushed to the emergency room and
written out another $10 million check from his personal bank account, 
convinced somebody who hasn't yet been burnt by him that they should give him
$50 million, and went right back to doing the same stupid thing. 

Even now the Next has so many pieces of innovation and ability in it, that it
is mind boggling to think they had nearly the same model 7 years ago and did 
nothing iwth it.  It makes the IBM OS/2 vs. MS Windows debacle look 
intelligent. 

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Subject: Re: Repost: Future of NeXTSTEP
From: hubbert (Bruce Hubbert)
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 93 19:32:31 EDT
In-Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
Organization: [MindVox] / Phantom Access Technologies / (+1 800-MindVox)

Bravo For that clarification. Best Yet, By FAR!

[email-masked]

"Enlightenment, don't know what it is." - - - Van Morrison

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Subject: THE TRUTH ABOUT NEXT
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 04:53:42 EDT
Organization: [MindVox] / Phantom Access Technologies / (+1 800-MindVox)

 Redwood City, CA (API) -- A tense stand-off entered its third week  
 today as authorities reported no progress in negotiations with  
 charismatic cult leader Steve Jobs.
 
 Negotiators are uncertain of the situation inside the compound, but  
 some reports suggest that half of the hundreds of followers inside  
 have been terminated.  Others claim to be staying of their own free  
 will, but Jobs' persuasive manner makes this hard to confirm.
 
 In conversations with authorities, Jobs has given conflicting  
 information on how heavily prepared the group is for war with the  
 industry.  At times, he has claimed to "have hardware which will blow  
 anything else away", while more recently he claims they have stopped  
 manufacturing their own.
 
 Agents from the ATF (Apple-Taligent Forces) believe that the group is  
 equipped with serious hardware, including 486-caliber pieces and  
 possibly Canon equipment.
 
 The siege has attracted a variety of spectators, from the curious to  
 other cultists.  Some have offered to intercede in negotiations,  
 including a young man who will identify himself only as "Bill" and  
 claims to be the "MS-iah".
 
 Former members of the cult, some only recently deprogrammed, speak  
 hesitantly of their former lives, including being forced to work  
 20-hour days, and subsisting on Jolt and Twinkies.  There were  
 frequent lectures in which they were indoctrinated into a theory of  
 "interpersonal computing" which rejects traditional roles.
 
 Late-night vigils on Chesapeake Drive are taking their toll on  
 federal marshals.  Loud rock and roll, mostly Talking Heads, blares  
 throughout the night.  Some fear that Jobs will fulfill his own  
 apocalyptic prophecies, a worry reinforced when the loudspeakers  
 carry Jobs' own speeches -- typically beginning with a chilling "I  
 want to welcome you to the 'Next World' ".

 $%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
 %$%$%$%$%$%$%$

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