Subject: Re: TURMEL: The Third Way

From: [email-masked] (Frank Ch. Eigler)
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 1995 12:10:17 GMT

John Turmel ([email-masked]) wrote:
: [...]
: That's what I've always said. As the debts come due, they are
: paid off. [...]

John, how do you propose to convince non-nationals to accept
payment by poker chips?

Also, are you not worried that the interest free one-to-one
collateral scheme would limit the availability of credit?
Companies would not be able to borrow money against future
income (as opposed to backing loans by their existing
capital).  The interest system encourages adventureous bankers
to issue money for such enterprises, at an appropriate level
of risk and reward to the banker.

-- 
Frank Ch. Eigler // [email-masked]
                // [email-masked]
               // [email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (John Turmel)
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 01:19:34 GMT

Subject: Re: TURMEL: The Third Way

 
>John, how do you propose to convince non-nationals to accept
 
     If the poker chips are accepted through the whole country 
and backed up one-to-one with wheat, oil, metals, I think they 
would prefer a $1,000 receipt which can purchase the same asset 
today and next year rather than a $1,000 bill which can purchase 
that asset today buy but less next year after inflation. 
     Just because I say that the Canadian money system should be 
run on the same algorithm doesn't mean they have to look like 
Poker chips. They should look just like Canadian money looks 
today in which case, the only difference would be that their 
value would be stabilized.
 
>capital). 
     There's no reason money-chips cannot be loaned against 
future income. It's the same as a casino issuing chips based on 
collateral offered and based on the borrower's marker. His 
promise to pay. So though backing up loans by their existing 
capital is a start, so is backing it up with future income. 
 
>The interest system encourages adventurous bankers
     But the interest itself creates the risk which is why mort-
gage comes from the French words "mort" and "death." 
     If everybody borrows 10 and everybody owes 11, the demand 
for the 11th token of money which was never put into circulation 
creates an automatic shortage which causes foreclosure of the 
losers. 
     In my earlier "Mathematics of Debt Slavery" post, 
you'll notice the examples of "Interest Island" versus "Service 
charge Island": 
 
GAME MODEL: SERVICE CHARGE VS. INTEREST
In his book `The Theory of Games and Economic Behavior', John Von 
Neumann, one of this century's top mathematicians, stated that "important 
questions in economics arise in a more elementary fashion in the 
theory of games." In the business war for markets, the economy decides 
who sells their goods and who fails to. Models used by economists are 
flawed by guesses and approximations about what the economy will 
choose. The only way to perfectly model the economy is to use fair 
chance to pick the winners and losers.
 
TO PLAY MORT-GAGE:
The necessary game equipment for "mort-gage" is 1) a box to represent 
the market economy); 2) 3 types of tokens to represent food, shelter, 
and energy (the tokens can be mints, napkins, cutlery);  3) a fair 
chance mechanism like a coin, cards, dice, straws, etc.; 4) matches or 
tokens to represent currency.
 
In the Interest Game, all owe the bank 11 for every 10 tokens they 
borrow and have to inflate their prices to repay both the principal 
and the interest.
Step 1) Have all the players wishing to get into business pledge their 
watches to borrow 10 matches from the bank at an interest rate. 
Step 2) Have all players spend 10 matches into the market box in 
exchange for a token representing the product of the economy's labor.
Step 3) Have pairs of players, those with similar tokens first, use 
chance to decide which will win a market share out of the box large 
enough to pay the principal and the interest necessary to survive the 
bank's demand.
Step 4) When the market runs out of currency, let the bank seize the 
tokens and watches of the losers. 
Step 5) Record the percent of those knocked into unemployment and the 
collateral seized.
 
In the Service Charge Game, all owe 11 for every 11 they borrow with 
the 11th paid immediately to the bank employees as a service charge. 
Step 1) Have all the players wishing to get into business pledge their 
watches to borrow 11 matches from the bank. 
Step 2) Have all players spend 11 matches into the market box in exchange 
for a product token, 10 for the services of those who produce the 
goods like on Interest Island, but also 1 for the services of the bank 
employees who facilitated the transactions.
Follow Step 3), 4) and 5) and note that in the Service Charge Game, 
unlike in the Interest Game, everybody can sell all their goods 
because the 11th unit of money entered the market through the bank 
employees. The very subtle difference between systems is that in the 
Interest Game, the bank demands payment of money it did not create 
while in the Service Charge Game, the bank demands payment of money it 
did create. With exactly enough markets to match the prices of goods 
produced, there can be no foreclosures.
     I hope this analysis has helped clear up many of the formerly 
misrepresented and misunderstood aspects of the usury banking system 
as well as explain why usury has been condemned throughout history as 
the greatest crime against humanity. It's the only thing standing 
between mankind and abundant salvation.
 
     I hope this simple demonstrattion shows how service charge 
loans do not create a death-gamble with a determinable percentage 
of losers like usury and where every producer may survive. 
 
John "The Engineer" Turmel