Subject: TURMEL: Posts deleted without notice

From: [email-masked] (John Turmel)
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 1995 04:48:31 GMT

On Aug 17 1995, I posted an article titled: 

"TURMEL: NCF did delete all our posts everywhere" 
     In it, I mentioned that I had received a private message on Aug 
10 1995  informing me that the person who had deleted all of our posts 
was the National Capital Freenet News Administrator Paul Tomblin, 
[email-masked]. He had been surreptitiously canceling my 
posts prior to Friday July 21 and on July 21, he canceled the whole 
lot. 
     Within a day, he canceled my complaint about what he had done. 
At least one person from Texas read it before it was censored and 
wrote him to complain about having his postings deleted with mine. 
     I had mentioned that "I have no wish to get embroiled in an 
possible civil court litigation with the NCF but the arbitrary 
treatment I received must be explained."
     I know many consider it a breach of Netiquette to publish one's 
private correspondence without permission but since one's mail is 
admissible in any Canadian court of Justice, it's a Netiquette that is 
voluntary but which has no basis in law. I've always tried to accord 
anonymity to correspondents who were civil but I've always felt free 
to attribute nasty messages to their authors within the topic. 
     I am therefore going to take the liberty of publishing the 
correspondence between me and NCF staffers. I doubt there might be any 
objections from anyone but perhaps Mr. Tomblin. 
     Considering he not only has his finger on the "cancel" button but 
is willing to use it unilaterally, I don't think it's unfair on my 
part to cite what he said in private in its entirety. I'm also 
reposting some relevant posts that were canceled. 
     Here is the correspondence between myself and NCF administrators 
and a few relevant postings in our quest to explain all the 
cancellations: 
------------------------------------------------------
 
:Date: Thu Jul 27 11:42:12 1995
:Subject: TURMEL: How were all my posts deleted everywhere?
:From: [email-masked] (John Turmel)
:ncf.admin,can.legal,ncf.general,tor.general,ont.general,can.general$
:
:Between 
:                     JOHN C. TURMEL, B. Eng.
:                                                       Plaintiff
:                               and
:                    NATIONAL CAPITAL FREENET
:                                                       Respondent
:                         NOTICE OF CLAIM 
: 
:     On Sunday July 23, I found out that all my posts and those 
:of my correspondents for the last two weeks had been deleted from 
:the ncf.general newsgroup. They were also deleted from a total of 
:fourteen(14) out-side newsgroups I attend. 
: 
:     I was not informed of a problem. 
:     I was not given a chance at representation.
: 
:     I would like to know:
:     1) Why this was done? 
:     2) What discussions took place? 
:     3) How this was done? 
:     4) Who authorized that this be done? 
: 
:     Unless there is authority for such censorship, I would 
:request that such actions be curtailed in future and my messages 
:be immediately returned. 
:     I have no wish to get embroiled in an possible civil court 
:litigation with the NCF but the arbitrary treatment I received 
:must be explained. 
:John C. Turmel, B. Eng. 
------------------------------------------------------
 
:Article #30518 (30564 is last):
:From: [email-masked] (John Stewart)
:Subject: Re: TURMEL: How were all my posts deleted everywhere?
:Date: Thu Jul 27 12:57:51 1995
:
:   You'd have to ask the person who cancelled your postings but as I will
:explain further on it isn't likely you'll ever find them.
:
:>     2) What discussions took place? 
:   None presumably.  Read on! 
:
:>     3) How this was done? 
:   Since you crosspost to many different newsgroups your postings are
:circulated to thousands of different sites in the world.  The requests to
:cancel your postings could have originated at any one of these sites.
:   Most news software in use today performs little or no authentication on
:the postings submitted to it.  As a result someone with knowledge of how
:the news system works can easily forge cancel requests for someone elses
:postings.
:
:>     4) Who authorized that this be done? 
:   No one presumably.  It was most likely just an act of vandalism commited
:by someone who has been careful to cover their tracks.  The information
:highway equivalent of having someone paint grafitti on your house.
:-- 
:John Stewart -- Computing and Communications Services, Carleton University
:Internet: [email-masked]                       613-788-2600x3707
:Freenet related queries: [email-masked]
------------------------------------------------------
 
:Article #30528 (30564 is last):
:From: [email-masked] (FreeNet Registrar)
:Subject: Re: TURMEL: How were all my posts deleted everywhere?
:Date: Thu Jul 27 16:17:28 1995
:
:John Turmel's posts were not deleted by NCF staff. In the case of any
:action of this nature (deletion of abusive, libellous or hateful postings,
:account suspensions or cancellations), every effort is made to contact the
:member in question to resolve the situation. NCF carefully considers these
:situations, and attempts to avoid unilateral actions as much as possible. 
:
:As John Stewart says, anyone at any site where Mr. Turmel's postings
:appear may have been able to delete them without too much trouble. There
:is little that NCF can do in this situation. There have been complaints
:from other sites (particularly in New Zealand) that Mr. Turmel has been
:jamming their newsgroups. Mass cross-posting is a breach of accepted
:standards of netiquette. The deletion of Mr. Turmel's postings is
:the result of someone has obviously feels that he has not been adhering to
:those standards. 
:Mike Anderson, Administrative Coordinator, National Capital FreeNet
:[email-masked]
:    respond to this address unless otherwise specified
------------------------------------------------------
 
:From: [email-masked] (John Turmel)
:Subject: Re: TURMEL: How were all our posts deleted everywhere?
:Date: Fri Jul 28 10:02:53 1995
:
:     In ncf.general, article #30518, I received an enlightening 
:answer from [email-masked] (John Stewart): 
: 
::John Stewart -- Computing and Communications Services, Carleton University
::Internet: [email-masked]                       613-788-2600x3707
::Freenet related queries: [email-masked]
: 
::   Most news software in use today performs little or no authentication on
::the postings submitted to it.  As a result someone with knowledge of how
::the news system works can easily forge cancel requests for someone else's
::postings.
::   It was most likely just an act of vandalism committed by someone
::who has been careful to cover their tracks. The information
::highway equivalent of having someone paint grafitti on your house.
::
:     I'm relieved to know that there was no conscious decision on 
:the part of the NCF to bow to the E-mail jammings sent to you by 
:a few irate members of the audience. 
:     Though vandalism is probably the right word, what struck me 
:was not just that they could erase my contributions to 
:discussions but that they could erase my correspondents' as well. 
:Could a vandal have managed to erase everyone on a stream that 
:easily? 
:     These were pretty important newsgroups too. I would hope 
:can.politics and ont.politics would be secure though the forgery 
:which surfaced during the Ontario provincial election campaign 
:did show the weakness in the system. 
:     I must admit that vandals have been posting articles in my 
:name in all sorts of other newsgroups and I've been getting angry 
:letters from those groups. I'm sure NCF has too. 
:     I have to wonder though if all of our fourteen conferences 
:perform so little or no authentication. 
:     Is there someway to ask the newsgroup sysop to disable the 
:cancel function? It's something I rarely use and I'd give it up 
:in an instant if if safetied me from the vandals. 
:
:     In article #30528 in Newsgroups: ncf.general on Jul 27 1995, 
:I received an answer from: [email-masked] (FreeNet 
:Registrar)
: 
::John Turmel's posts were not deleted by NCF staff. In the case of any
::action of this nature (deletion of abusive, libellous or hateful postings,
::account suspensions or cancellations), every effort is made to contact the
::member in question to resolve the situation. NCF carefully considers these
::situations, and attempts to avoid unilateral actions as much as possible. 
::
::As John Stewart says, anyone at any site where Mr. Turmel's postings
::appear may have been able to delete them without too much trouble. There
::is little that NCF can do in this situation. There have been complaints
::from other sites (particularly in New Zealand) that Mr. Turmel has been
::jamming their newsgroups. Mass cross-posting is a breach of accepted
::standards of netiquette. The deletion of Mr. Turmel's postings is
::the result of someone has obviously feels that he has not been adhering to
::those standards. 
::Mike Anderson, Administrative Coordinator, National Capital FreeNet
::[email-masked]
::
:     I was posting in only one newsgroup in New Zealand: 
:nz.general. Those complaints are from the foul-mouths who fill up 
:the Topic Index Page with insults and stunted replies. The two or 
:three topic lines I use per day are dwarfed by the dozens of 
:these valueless contributions. I can understand the exasperation 
:with so many out-of-country posts because the name-calling IS 
:off-topic. 
:     But what am I supposed to do? Stop communicating with the 
:New Zealander LETS who reply because of a few rowdies who want to 
:start shouting nasty replies? It's like walking into a crowd with 
:a pack of dogs at your heels. No one's particularly happy to have 
:you around. Some will tell you to leave hoping the dogs go with 
:you. Some like to watch the fight. 
:     Complaints from New Zealand are an interesting case because 
:I was just over there on a speaking tour about their LETS 
:Greendollar bank branches and have already connected with several 
:other LETS members I didn't know in nz.general. LETS are called 
:financial "life-boats." It is the best example I have of why I'm 
:not leaving. Do I have to get affidavits from those who want to 
:continue these discussions on "life-boats" with me on nz.general 
:before I'm allowed to participate in peace? 
:     As for exaggerated complaints of "Mass cross-posting" which 
:has yet to be defined, I cross-posted to only fourteen groups I 
:feel are related to these discussions. Many times, I've seen 
:cross-posts to many more than fourteen and with no complaints. 
:It's never bothered me where someone likes to post his opinions. 
:Considering my usual gung-ho enterprises, I think my choices of 
:newsgroups was well-thought-out and rather conservative. I do not 
:feel, given the many, many, longer lists that I have in any way 
:breached Netiquette rules. 
:     As for the complaints of long posts, this is not dinner 
:table etiquette where you're not supposed to monopolize the 
:conversation because it gets in the way of the conversation 
:between others. This is a new game where nobody's long-windedness 
:can get in the way of any other. Too prolific is a red herring if 
:you have the power to discard your mail. 
:     I'm just lucky I can write at my machine all day and post at 
:night. I doubt there's a limit to prolificacy? 
:
:     In Article #30519 Rob Sellars <[email-masked]> wrote:
: 
:::      I was not informed of a problem.
::
::I find it hard to believe that you were unaware that a large 
::number of people were upset at the length of your posts and the 
::manner in which you post to "seemingly" unrelated newsgroups.
::
:     Those people who can't handle 10 or 20 pages shouldn't keep 
:trying to read my posts. And what about the people who enjoy the 
:posts and correspond with me? Do they have to forego down-
:loading those few 20 page posts because of complainants? 
: 
::I have a solution to everyone's problem. Set up a home page with 
::links to all your articles on your www server, and when you have 
::new information, write a short message with a link to you home 
::page and post it to only the "related" newsgroups.
::
:     Why don't they cancel the newsgroups and make everybody get 
:a home page. Or is this only for John Turmel? Why should I not be 
:able to participate in the public fora of the newsgroups? What am 
:I supposed to post?:
:     "Go go John Turmel's Web Page to find out his submissions on 
:this topic."?  
:     No matter how you're cutting it, you're looking for an 
:acceptable way for me to be pushed out of public debate by a 
:bunch of foul-mouths and vandals. 
:     I've never accepted less than "the same" treatment before 
:and I'm not going to start now. 
: 
::I think you will find that people will be more receptive
::to your ideas if they aren't forced upon them.
::
:     Posting information is not forcing it upon them. I think 
:it's an improper concept to even think that publishing ideas is 
:somehow improperly forcing them on people. They just have to not 
:read them. Besides, I'm not looking for people who judge it on 
:how it was presented to them but for people who judge on how it 
:works. 
: 
::If you need help setting up a home page please
::E-mail me and I will help you as much as possible.
::
:     Can't hurt. I haven't had time to learn the codes myself 
:since most of the information I put out is new. I get 20 
:responses a day and try to answer them. I think getting those 
:answers beside the questions is taking most of my time right now 
:but putting some standard texts like the poetry, the math, and 
:the press clippings on a web page would certainly alleviate some 
:complaining. Thanks for the offer. I'll write.
: 
:     In article #30535, [email-masked] (Marco Anglesio):
: 
::Umm, John and John, a cancelbot isn't all that hard to write. NNTP was 
::designed to allow for minimal verification (see the RFC, I don't remember 
::the number off the top of my head, but no doubt someone does) and cancel 
::bots take advantage of this fact. 
::Furthermore, John Turmel, you're lucky that it didn't happen beforehand. 
::You have irritated almost every group you post to, and it was only a 
::matter of time until a cancelbot started deleting your posts. 
::
:     Just because there was a lot of noise from a few foul-mouths 
:doesn't mean I was the one who alienated those readers. Those who 
:were responding were irritated by nothing more than having their 
:posts vandalized like mine. 
: 
::Unless, of course, you had already read them and they weren't 
::shown because your .newsrc did its job. You've already proved 
::your ignorance of the way Usenet works.
::
:     Well, it's true I haven't devoted much time to learning how 
:to "cancelbot" somebody. this is the first time I've come into 
:contact with these kinds of tactics. It seems like it's going to 
:be race for me to put up my posts and have my readers pick them 
:up before they're torn down. And as I put them back up and 
:they're torn down, the conference will start screaming about the 
:space in their Topic Index page we're taking up. 
:     All these years communicating on the Internet and I never 
:looked into "cancelbots." As a well-known Canadian professional 
:gambler, it's fair to say my sportsmanlike conduct is pretty 
:guaranteed. "You don't need to beat'em crooked when you can 
:beat'em fair," is a pretty easy motto to live by if you're a 
:trained winner. No, the idea of sabotaging someone's discussion 
:because I didn't like what he had to say is totally alien to my 
:ethos. 
:     Guaranteed money coming in which is based on your worth and 
:skill gives one a different appetite for wealth compared to those 
:whose job doesn't guarantee financial security. They never have 
:enough. 
:     That's what feels so good about having a Greendollar bank 
:account. Your money coming in is based on what you can do, your 
:worth and skill, and not on what you own or earn. It's even based 
:on worth and skill in twenty years when they've grown up. 
:     Interest-free credit cards for children would be panacea. An 
:interest-free credit card in the hands of every little kid who 
:needs an operation. No more families pleading on TV for funds to 
:have an operation. It's on the kids tab. An interest-free credit 
:card in the hand of every starving Third Worlder. Bet not much 
:food rots in farmers' fields. And if they lose and can't repay, 
:the Greendollar program can take a Greendollar out of everybody's 
:account to close out Junior's debt. 
:     
::I'm damn glad that I don't have to be the one to deal with your 
::pathetic whining. Have fun until your account on ncf gets revoked.
::marco anglesio
::
:     This is sad. You see an example that our communications are 
:not that safe and you think looking into it is whining. This is 
:the first time and I'm offended that it was so easy. The 
:newsgroups must be pretty insecure if someone can go erase every 
:who posted to our streams. Wouldn't you like it better too if it 
:were more secure?
: 
:     From article #30536, [email-masked] (Bill Stuart): 
: 
:::      I was not informed of a problem. 
::        200 posts a day telling you to shut up should be a clue.
::
:     20 from the same 8 guys. And you don't need clues when you 
:have two hands to count with. 
: 
:::      I was not given at chance at representation.
::        You are not entitled to representation on the net. It's not a
::legal proceeding. 
::
:     As you'll note above, whenever the NCF authority discusses 
:doing something like this, you are given a chance at 
:representation. 
: 
::    It's called a "Cancelbot". It reads newsgroups and issues a cancel
::in your name through a forged id.
::
: 
:     That's sad to think that it's as easy as that. Can they 
:forge id on the go to kill everyone in the stream or do they have 
:to log in under the forged name each time? 
: 
:::      Unless there is authority for such censorship, I would 
::: request that such actions be curtailed in future and my messages 
::: be immediately returned. 
::        It's net anarchy. This is what people to to stop spam.
: 
:     No, this is what just a few can do to hurt anyone they want. 
: 
::>      I have no wish to get embroiled in an possible civil court 
::> litigation with the NCF but the arbitrary treatment I received 
::> must be explained. 
::       It could have been one out of about 8 hundred thousand 
::people. NCF most likely doesn't care about you either way. 
::
:     I don't take the matter lightly and if hadn't been 
:vandalism, I was just letting people know that there are ways to 
:set Internet law, at least in Canada. If it had been done by the 
:system, it was what I requested to avoid a court battle. A 
:necessary piece of information. 
: 
:     From article #30539 [email-masked] (David Kendall):
: 
::I'm curious as to why you've tried to make this post look like a 
::legal document. Have you actually filed suit?
::
:     No, I had to ascertain who was responsible first. But it was 
:started in the right direction, wasn't it?  
: 
::Once again, you're being needlessly confrontational. A simple e-
::mail would have sufficed.
::
:     Yes, I may have over-reacted but I've been squelched by the 
:authorities so many times in my life -- as any well-read Ottawa 
:resident can tell you --  that I almost take it for granted. I 
:thought I might have to fight to be able to continue posting like 
:I've always had to fight to be able to participate in election 
:debates. It's just not something people should take for granted. 
:Minor candidates' rights to participate in televised debates in 
:Canada have been completely eliminated. Do you think eliminating 
:minor people's rights to post what they have to say on Internet 
:isn't far behind? They've established financial censorship over 
:all other media, do you think this medium will escape? Hope so. 
: 
:     From article #88541 [email-masked] (Michel 
:Vachon):
: 
::John Turmel ([email-masked]) writes:
::[pointless attempt at threatening legal language deleted]
::Quite likely someone complained about your abuses of the system. 
::If so they just beat me to it.
::
:     That was the whole point. The NCF properly didn't and 
:shouldn't have though you don't seem to yet realize that. And if 
:you can prove to me that you can ever beat them to it, you'll be 
:hiring a lawyer the next day. So don't brag. It's admissible. 
: 
::Unfortunately, you don't seem to learn from your experiences and have
::placed this irrelevant posting in can.politics where it does not belong.
::
:     I'm a Canadian politician who has had my speeches deleted 
:from the Canadian political discussion. Please tell me you didn't 
:know I hold the record for most federal elections in Canada. And 
:provincial. Maybe not municipal. Yet. 
: 
:     The topics I started were:
: 
:     April 9, 1995 I asked: "The Third Way?" The first way is 
:raising taxes. The second is cutting government spending. What's 
:the third way? This got lots of play. I wanted people in the 
:can.taxes, can.politics, ont.general, tor.general, and 
:ncf.general to know about this. 
: 
:     June 20, I re-opened the stream: "What National Debt?" An 
:Ottawa Freenetter had made some good points, had been criticized 
:and I wanted to defend him in the sci.econ newsgroup. 
: 
:Jun 21, I opened "Greendollars are Timedollars in U.S.A." Got 
:little play since Greendollars are called Timedollars in U.S.A."
: 
:June 21, I asked: "Why did Christ speak in Parables?" He spoke in 
:parables because of loan-sharking and he said it with a 
:Differential Equation. This got loads of play, almost 20 
:exchanges, and two readers found the D.E. in His words. I'd never 
:gotten anyone who'd taken D.E.s to even see the D.E. in those 
:verses let alone derive them themselves. It's like when you plug 
:the answer you've just worked out into the original problem and 
:it fits. It's right and you know it's right. It's not economics. 
: 
:July 2, I responded to: "Rabson's Fable" with "Rabson's Fable 
:(amended) which used a beautiful premise he had constructed but 
:treated his gold-smith like a casino cashier. No more complaints 
:from the economists. The discussion is idle. 
: 
:July 4, [email-masked] brought to an old post: 
:Guinness Record for most elections. This discussion was jumped on 
:with vehemence. 
: 
:July 12, I answered: "Christ's Bank Account." This explained a 
:second Differential Equation Christ gave us to use instead of the 
:Loansharking Deferential Equation. Showed some Laplace Transforms 
:and control systems diagrams of how the two bank accounts work. I 
:put this on the sci.engr. 
: 
:July 13, I specified: "Mathematics of Debt Slavery." This post 
:has all the math and always generates insults but no criticisms. 
:Several engineers have already attested the math is right. Good 
:ones anyway. There are some bad ones out there who can't keep up. 
: 
:On July 16, I detailed: "LETS Greendollar Press Reports" and 
:added nz.general, aus.general and uk.misc where LETSystems are 
:thriving best. Contacts and discussion have been made. 
: 
:On July 13, I responded to claims for: "Censorship." Says it all. 
: 
:On July 14, I posted my efforts in: "Press Clippings." These are 
:my endeavors in Banking Systems Engineering using politics, law 
:and gambling. 
: 
:On July 14, I detailed former discussions: "Usury on sci.econ." 
:There were some very funny arguments at the time and have 
:generated some even funnier ones now. 
: 
:July 22, 1995, I explain why I post: "I'm a Pauper." After my 
:gambling conviction, the rules said I had to end up broke. Again. 
: 
:July 19, I responded to: "My ego is so big that..." There had 
:been lots of play on that topic by the nasties and I just felt 
:a little mental judo would do them good. 
: 
:     I thought they were very interesting streams and I'm sorry 
:to see them gone from public view. Quite a few people found them 
:"most entertaining." But the bellicose vandals had to e
: 
:     The others' topics were:
: 
:1)   Subject: TURMEL DEVOURED BY SPACE GUPPY
:     From: [email-masked] (Bill Stuart)
:2)   Subject: CHRIST: Why does Turmel speak nonsense?
:     From: [email-masked] (David Kendall)
:3)   Subject: Re: Rising Kook: TURMEL & the differential bible
:     From: karl mamer <[email-masked]> 
:4)   Subject: TURMEL: My ego is so big that....
:     From: [email-masked] (Christian Rose)
:5)   Subject: Can we get Turmel out of here?
:     From: Herman De Vries <[email-masked]>
:6)   Subject: Turmet - Oops
:     From: Herman De Vries <[email-masked]>
:7)   Subject: TURMEL: headswell
:     From: [email-masked] (Alan Hughes)
:8)   Subject: Turmel and cross-posting
:     From: [email-masked] (Jeff Gagnon)
:9)   Subject: John Turmal And Ego's
:     From: [email-masked] (Jeff Gagnon)
:10)  Subject: John Turmel, Net Abuser Extraordinaire
:     From: Lazarus <[email-masked]>
:11)  Subject: WHO THE $#%@ IS TURMEL??????????
:     From: [email-masked] (Vils M. DiSanto)
:12)  Subject: Is Turmel the next Mutlu/Argic?
:     From: [email-masked] (Sean Maguire)
:13)  Subject: Re: Turmel's still here - Im gone
:     From: [email-masked] (Lorie Lanktree)
:14)  Subject: TURMEL: Kook of the Month Nomination
:     From: [email-masked] (karl mamer)
:15)  Subject: Re: Hey Idiot!
:     From: [email-masked] (CyberKnght)
:16)  Subject: Turmel...
:     From: [email-masked] (Christopher Wright)
:17)  Subject: Re: Can we do something about Turmel?
:     From: [email-masked] (Mark Ogilvie)
:18)  Subject: John Turmel
:     From: [email-masked] (Sharon Collins)
:19)  Subject: Re: Regardng John Turmel...
:     From: Friday <[email-masked]>
:20)  Subject: Can we have nz.general back please?
:     From: [email-masked] (Bruce Simpson)
:21)  Subject: My Dear Mr. Turmel
:     From: [email-masked] (Andre L. Ouellette)
:22)  Subject: ncf.general = ....TURMEL.... ???!??!
:     From: [email-masked] (Scott D. Green)
:23)  Subject: Get rid of this TURMEL guy
:     From: [email-masked] (Elizabeth Douglas)
:24)  Subject: GIVE TURMEL A SEX CHANGE, DEPORT HIM, AND CHARGE 
:     HIM WITH HATE CRIMES
:     From: [email-masked] (Bill Stuart)
: 
:     They cross-posted every one of these ridiculous statements 
:topics everywhere. Ten or twenty loud-mouths screaming a lot about 
:the "absolutely ridiculous, impossible, doesn't-merit-discussion" 
:"drivel" and clutter up the screen with our discussion. This kind 
:of noise is far more effective than one may realize. People wake 
:up and see a face full of this and it makes them angry about my 
:being there and "causing" such a stir. 
:     Drop all the topics with theme "it-can't-be-done," "it-
:shouldn't-be-here," "how-can-we-best-stop-listening," and "how-
:can-we-best-stop-him-from-speaking" and "NAME CALLING" you're 
:left with my few posts a day with 5 or 6 interested responses. 
:     I think I put on a class act in a rough-and-tumble game with 
:verbal body-checking but my checks were never unfair. I never hit 
:below the belt. I never once used language I couldn't use in 
:front of your mother. I never had to curse. All I had to do was 
:be funny and making fun of the opposition hurts them most. 
:     I think I put on a class act in a place where in a rough-
:and-tumble game with verbal body-checking but shots were never 
:unfair. I never hit below the belt. I believe in sportsmanship. 
:     So not only can a small group of noise-makers stuff one's 
:post-master with complaints but they can also instigate other 
:such cross-postings to annoy readers I'm trying to address. 
:     I have those streams if anyone would like them back up so we 
:can continue our discussions. 
:John C. Turmel
------------------------------------------------------
 
:From: xx247 ("G.J.W. Hagenaars")
:Subject: Re: How were all my posts deleted everywhere?
:Date: Sun Jul 30 18:50:14 1995
:To: [email-masked]
:Cc: complaint, newsmaster
:%                          NOTICE OF CLAIM 
:
:I've received over three hundred complaints over the past two weeks.  I
:am sure that the newsmaster has received at least that many. Were I to
:guess, I think that you have been Cc-ed on at least half of those.
:Are you sure you were not aware of a problem?
:
:%      I was not given a chance at representation.
:
:Among the complaints I got were quoted postings by you, where you said
:that some people were mailing you, and that you were deleting them
:without looking at the contents if you suspected that they were mailing
:back your posts, and that you were ignoring all pleas to stop posting
:large volume to expensive newsgroups.
:I must admit that I did not see those postings from you myself (I don't
:read Usenet News any more), but did _those_ people not have a right to be
:heard?
:
:%      I would like to know:
:%      1) Why this was done? 
:%      2) What discussions took place? 
:%      3) How this was done? 
:%      4) Who authorized that this be done? 
:
:Unfortunately I do not know the answer to any of these questions, with
:the possible exception of #3. 
:
:%      Unless there is authority for such censorship, I would 
:% request that such actions be curtailed in future and my messages 
:% be immediately returned. 
:%  
:%      I have no wish to get embroiled in an possible civil court 
:% litigation with the NCF but the arbitrary treatment I received 
:% must be explained. 
:
:You would be mighty popular if you were to take NCF to court.
:Especially with all the people who cannot afford the $30 a month for
:commercial InterNet access; they depend on NCF to provide them with
:this access. From what I've seen from your postings that were mailed to
:me; you make a point of defending the people with little money.
:The above is my _PERSONAL_OPINION_ and has absolutely _NO_ link with
:any official opinion that any of the boardmembers of NCF would/could
:make. Or any other official opinion for that matter.
:This message is Cc-ed to one of the board members who deals with
:complaints, and the newsmaster.
:G.J.W. Hagenaars, M.Sc. Math ----> Remembering Mike Carty 1968-1994
:[email-masked] -------> Postmaster National Capital FreeNet
------------------------------------------------------
 
:From: [email-masked]
:Subject: Complaints
:Date: Tue Aug  1 23:00:18 1995
:To: xx247      (G J W Hagenaars) - OK
:
:Subject: Re: How were all my posts deleted everywhere?
: 
:To: xx247 ("G.J.W. Hagenaars")
: 
::I've received over three hundred complaints over the past two weeks.  I
::am sure that the newsmaster has received at least that many. Were I to
::guess, I think that you have been Cc-ed on at least half of those.
::
:     I was aware of a few dozen people but nowhere near 300. Is 
:there some way I can get documentation. 
: 
::Are you sure you were not aware of a problem?
::
:     I'm still not aware of a problem. Who has a right to say 
:something doesn't belong but not specify why? I picked my 14 
:conferences with great care that information be relevant. And who 
:has a right to say what is too long? Why do these people even 
:have to read my posts? 
: 
::Among the complaints I got were quoted postings by you, where you said
::that some people were mailing you, and that you were deleting them
::without looking at the contents if you suspected that they were mailing
::back your posts, and that you were ignoring all pleas to stop posting
::large volume to expensive newsgroups.
::
:     What is large? It's true that when I saw a screenful of mail 
:from the same person, all large messages, I assumed that they 
:were just mail-jams and discarded them. 
:     What makes these newsgroups expensive? I had no idea a 
:couple of dozen pages was such a trial.
: 
::I must admit that I did not see those postings from you myself (I don't
::read Usenet News any more), but did _those_ people not have a right to be
::heard?
::
:     How was I preventing their right to be heard? 
: 
::%      I have no wish to get embroiled in an possible civil court 
::% litigation with the NCF but the arbitrary treatment I received 
::% must be explained. 
::
::You would be mighty popular if you were to take NCF to court.
::
:     Had the NCF been responsible for acting arbitrarily, I would 
:have gone to court. And I think that preventing arbitrary action  
:may have been more popular than you might think. I'm pleased that 
:my posts were erased by a vandal and not the authorities. I'm now 
:writing a letter of complaint to the RCMP in my position of 
:Leader of the Abolitionist Party of Canada whose postings were 
:deleted from can.politics, can.taxes and can.general in 
:particular. 
: 
::Especially with all the people who cannot afford the $30 a month for
::commercial InterNet access; they depend on NCF to provide them with
::this access. From what I've seen from your postings that were mailed to
::me; you make a point of defending the people with little money.
::
:     And as long as NCF continues to act fairly, there will be no 
:problem from me. 
: 
::The above is my _PERSONAL_OPINION_ and has absolutely _NO_ link with
::any official opinion that any of the boardmembers of NCF would/could
::make. Or any other official opinion for that matter.
::
:     No problem. I just want to point out that there are no rules 
:which limit how many relevant newsgroups I may post to nor how 
:long is too long. And I'd point out there are many people who 
:post to far more newsgroups at once than I ever did. So I find it 
:hard to take seriously complaints about spamming in my case. 
:John Turmel
------------------------------------------------------
 
:Article #30714 (30728 is last):
:From: [email-masked] (Ian! D. Allen [NCFreeNet])
:Subject: Re: TURMEL: How were all my posts deleted everywhere?
:Date: Wed Aug  2 13:19:14 1995
:
:>In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] says...
:>[...] Also, being in a position of authority 
:>implies a responsibility, and the obligation, to sometimes take action to 
:>correct a problem, they had some obligations to consider when they took 
:>their action.  That doesn't seem to be the case here, there seemed to be 
:>no official action.
:
:Lisa Donnely and I have now looked into the deletions.  She will post a
:statement about NCF involvement soon.  Sorry for the delay -- we are
:having problems contacting our News admin by phone and coordinating
:the opinions of various NCF Board members and staff.
:-IAN!  Ian! D. Allen  [email-masked]   System Administrator |Ottawa
: The National Capital FreeNet     Libertel de la Capitale nationale    |Canada
------------------------------------------------------
 
:Article #30724 (30728 is last):
:From: [email-masked] (Ian! D. Allen [NCFreeNet])
:Subject: Re: TURMEL: How were all my posts deleted everywhere?
:Date: Wed Aug  2 15:29:10 1995
:
:John Turmel <[email-masked]> wrote:
:>Could a vandal have managed to erase everyone on a stream that easily? 
:>Can they forge id on the go to kill everyone in the stream [...]
:
:Yes.  Anyone with a little knowledge can erase anything and everything
:posted to Usenet.
:
:>I must admit that vandals have been posting articles in my 
:>name in all sorts of other newsgroups and I've been getting angry 
:>letters from those groups. I'm sure NCF has too. 
:
:Yes we have.  Lots of angry mail.
:
:>I have to wonder though if all of our fourteen conferences 
:>perform so little or no authentication. 
:
:Such is the nature of Usenet.  Just as anyone can stand on a soapbox
:in downtown Ottawa, proclaim he is John Turmel, and spout rubbish,
:anyone on Usenet can do the same.  We don't have mandatory ID cards
:that we must display in public; we don't have them on the net either.
:
:>Is there someway to ask the newsgroup sysop to disable the 
:>cancel function?
:
:Too hard to do; we don't have the programming staff.
:
:>But what am I supposed to do? Stop communicating with the 
:>New Zealander LETS who reply because of a few rowdies who want to 
:>start shouting nasty replies?
:
:Perhaps you should ask the nz news admin to create a separate LETS news
:group for your discussions if the general group is annoyed with your
:large number of repetitive postings.  Do whatever makes peace with people.
:
:>As for exaggerated complaints of "Mass cross-posting" which 
:>has yet to be defined, I cross-posted to only fourteen groups I 
:>feel are related to these discussions.
:
:That's too many.  Pick one well-distributed news group and stick with it.
:Monthly, post a short note in the other news groups to refer people to
:the main news group.  That should cut down on the irritation you cause.
:
:>Many times, I've seen 
:>cross-posts to many more than fourteen and with no complaints. 
:
:I see the complaints -- lots of them.  Just because a million people
:do a stupid thing doesn't mean you have to be stupid too.  Read the
:Usenet etiquette files; cross posting is bad manners.
:
:>"Go go John Turmel's Web Page to find out his submissions on 
:>this topic."?  
:>Why don't they cancel the newsgroups and make everybody get 
:>a home page.
:
:It's coming, even here on NCF.  You can start by putting all your
:relevant stuff in a file named HomePage.html in your NCF work
:directory.  Do that, then tell people to access the URL:
:
:    html://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bc726
:
:We'll expand the service when I figure out how home pages are
:supported elsewhere.  Or, better, why not start a LETS area on NCF and
:put your files there.  Then you can have a private NCF news group and
:your own menus leading to all your information in a well-organized
:manner.  NCF menus are visible world-wide on the WWW as well, so
:people around the world can come get everything.
:
:>No matter how you're cutting it, you're looking for an 
:>acceptable way for me to be pushed out of public debate by a 
:>bunch of foul-mouths and vandals.  [...]
:>This kind of noise is far more effective than one may realize.
:
:Calling postings "noise" is again a subjective assessment of content.
:Your assessment of their postings is no more valid than their
:assessment of yours; your opinion of the content of their articles
:carries no more weight than their opinion of the content of your
:articles.  Who's to say whose content is better or worse?
:
:>I've never accepted less than "the same" treatment before 
:>and I'm not going to start now. 
:
:News administrators do cancel massively cross-posted stuff.  If it
:happens to you, you're getting the same treatment as everyone else.
:-IAN!  Ian! D. Allen  [email-masked]   System Administrator |Ottawa
: The National Capital FreeNet     Libertel de la Capitale nationale    |Canada
------------------------------------------------------
 
:From: news (News Administrator)
:Subject: Net abuse
:Date: Thu Aug 10 22:48:52 1995
:To: bc726
:Cc: complain, exec
:
:Dear Mr. Turmel:
:
:It seems that not a day goes by that I don't recieve one or more complaints
:about your behaviour on Usenet.  Most of these complaints come not from the
:content of your posts, but from the manner in which you post them.  It
:appears as if you, inspite of my warning of a few days ago, are continuing
:the following inappopriate behaviours:
:- massive cross posting to inappropriate groups.
:- repeating the same message over and over again.
:
:Both of those behaviours are not allowed here on NCF, for the very simple
:reason that they are considered bad net.citizenship.  We cannot allow the
:misbehaviour of one person to make the entire user community of NCF look bad.
:Therefore, in the past I have cancelled many of your posts that were
:inappropriate.  One time my scripts returned a list of over 300 posts, and I
:did not have time to look at all 300.  Instead I looked at 20 or so at random
:and discovered that all 20 of them were actionable, so I cancelled the whole
:lot.  I regret that I might have cancelled many posts that were not
:actionable, but at the time I had no choice.
:
:Please be advised that several of the people who read and post to
:news.admin.net-abuse.announce have also expressed dismay at your behaviour,
:and may have also taken action against your posts.
:
:I am writing you to ask you not to continue in this manner of behaviour.  NCF
:is not a right, it's a priviledge.  That priviledge may be revoked at any
:time.  I have forwarded many of the complaints I have received about your
:behaviour to the NCF Board, and I understand they are considering what to do
:about you.  I'm sure a promise to behave like a good net citizen would help
:your case tremendously.
:
:The behaviours I am asking you to cease are:
:- cross posting to groups that you do not read and to which your posts do not
:apply.  Most specifically, stop posting to regional hierarchies outside of
:yoru region.  Many complaints have resulted from your posting to uk.misc and
:uk.general because your postings have nothing to do with the United Kingdom.
:- Repeating the same posting again and again.
:Thank you for your cooperation in this matter.
:-- 
:Paul Tomblin -- News Administrator, National Capital Freenet
:Internet: [email-masked] or [email-masked]
------------------------------------------------------
 
:From: [email-masked]
:Subject: Net abuse
:Date: Sun Aug 13 19:50:17 1995
:To: news,complain,exec
:
::From: news (News Administrator)
::Thu Aug 10 22:48:52 1995
::Dear Mr. Turmel:
::in spite of my warning of a few days ago, 
::
:     I'm sorry but I did not remember seeing any warning from you 
:within the last few days. Perhaps I accidently discarded it due to the 
:recent high volume. Could you send me the original message and the 
:date it was sent and I'll check again?
:John Turmel
------------------------------------------------------
 
:From: ab401 (Paul Tomblin)
:Subject: Re: Net abuse
:Date: Sun Aug 13 20:24:46 1995
:To: bc726
:Cc: news, complain, exec
:> 
:> within the last few days. Perhaps I accidently discarded it due to the 
:  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:  This sentence no verb.
:
:> recent high volume. Could you send me the original message and the 
:> date it was sent and I'll check again?
:> John Turmel
:> 
:If you are looking for a copy of one or both of my warnings about your
:behaviour, then I'm afraid I can't help you.  Maybe somebody else can?
------------------------------------------------------
 
:From: [email-masked] (John Turmel)
:Subject: Re: Net abuse
:Date: Sun Aug 13 21:24:37 1995
:To: ab401
:>If you are looking for a copy of one or both of my warnings about your
:>behaviour, then I'm afraid I can't help you.  Maybe somebody else can?
:>
:Could you tell me that date of the message and I'll check my files.
:John Turmel
---------------------------------------------------
 
:From: ab401 (Paul Tomblin)
:Subject: Re: Net abuse
:Date: Mon Aug 14 06:47:42 1995
:> Could you tell me that date of the message and I'll check my
:> files.
:> 
:Can't help you there.
---------------------------------------------------
 
:From: [email-masked] (Richard P. Taylor)
:Subject: [news: Net abuse]
:Date: Mon Aug 14 12:59:10 1995
:To: bc726
:Cc: news
:Mr. Turmel,
:Your message was truncated, but I believe you were asking for another copy
:of this warning message.
:Richard Taylor, NCF Board Secretary
:    ================= Begin forwarded message =================
:    From: news (News Administrator)
:    To: bc726
:    Cc: complain, exec
:    Subject: Net abuse
:    Date: Thu, 10 Aug
:
::It seems that not a day goes by that I don't recieve one or more complaints
::about your behaviour on Usenet.  Most of these complaints come not from the
:=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=         
:Richard P. Taylor                        I've helped NCF meet the challenge!
:[email-masked]                Have you? ==> go challenge    
:National Capital FreeNet Board Secretary
------------------------------------------------------
 
:From: [email-masked]
:Subject: Net abuse
:Date: Tue Aug 15 1995
:To: aa333 (Richard Taylor)
:
:     Actually, the message you sent me is the same and only one I 
:received from the news administrator. 
:     I was interested in the "warning of a few days ago" mentioned 
:above and which I did not receive.
:     One final question: is it possible to purchase more memory for 
:several meg of information in a Freenet web page? 
:John C. Turmel
------------------------------------------------------
 
:From: ab401 (Paul Tomblin)
:Subject: Re: Net abuse
:Date: Wed Aug 16 06:55:20 1995
:To: bc726
:Cc: aa333, news
:
:> :    From: news (News Administrator)
:> :    Dear Mr. Turmel:
:> :inspite of my warning of a few days ago, are continuing
:> :
:>      Actually, the message you sent me is the same and only one I 
:> received from the news administrator. 
:>      I was interested in the "warning of a few days ago" mentioned 
:> above and which I did not receive.
:
:I don't have a copy of it, sorry.
:Paul Tomblin, Freenet News Administrator.  Currently living in Rochester, NY
---------------------------------------------------
 
:From: [email-masked] (John Turmel)
:Subject: TURMEL: NCF did delete all our posts everywhere
:Date: Thu Aug 17 00:16:52 1995
: 
:     Many of you may have noticed that on Sunday Sept. 23, all of our 
:discussions on "TURMEL:" related topics were deleted from all 14 
:newsgroups I cross-posted to. Also erased were all your responses. I 
:wrote letter of complaint to the National Capital Freenet:
: 
::                          NOTICE OF CLAIM 
::     On Sunday July 23, I found out that all my posts and those 
::of my correspondents for the last two weeks had been deleted from 
::the ncf.general newsgroup. They were also deleted from a total of 
::fourteen(14) out-side newsgroups I attend. 
::I was not informed of a problem. 
::I was not given a chance at representation.
::I would like to know:
::1) Why this was done? 
::2) What discussions took place? 
::3) How this was done? 
::4) Who authorized that this be done? 
::     Unless there is authority for such censorship, I would request 
::that such actions be curtailed in future and my messages be 
::immediately returned. 
::     I have no wish to get embroiled in an possible civil court 
::litigation with the NCF but the arbitrary treatment I received 
::must be explained. 
::John C. Turmel, B. Eng., [email-masked]
: 
:     On Jul 27 1995 in article #30518 in ncf.general, 
:John Stewart -- Computing and Communications Services, Carleton University
:Internet: [email-masked]                       613-788-2600x3707
:Freenet related queries: [email-masked] wrote: 
: 
::   Since you crosspost to many different newsgroups your postings are
::circulated to thousands of different sites in the world.  The requests to
::cancel your postings could have originated at any one of these sites.
::   Most news software in use today performs little or no authentication on
::the postings submitted to it.  As a result someone with knowledge of how
::the news system works can easily forge cancel requests for someone elses
::postings.
::
:::     4) Who authorized that this be done? 
::   No one presumably.  It was most likely just an act of vandalism commited
::by someone who has been careful to cover their tracks.  The information
::highway equivalent of having someone paint grafitti on your house.
: 
:     In article #30528, Mike Anderson, Administrative Coordinator, 
:[email-masked] (FreeNet Registrar) wrote: 
: 
::John Turmel's posts were not deleted by NCF staff. In the case of any
::action of this nature (deletion of abusive, libellous or hateful postings,
::account suspensions or cancellations), every effort is made to contact the
::member in question to resolve the situation. NCF carefully considers these
::situations, and attempts to avoid unilateral actions as much as possible. 
::
::As John Stewart says, anyone at any site where Mr. Turmel's postings
::appear may have been able to delete them without too much trouble. There
::is little that NCF can do in this situation. There have been complaints
::from other sites (particularly in New Zealand) that Mr. Turmel has been
::jamming their newsgroups. Mass cross-posting is a breach of accepted
::standards of netiquette. The deletion of Mr. Turmel's postings is
::the result of someone has obviously feels that he has not been adhering to
::those standards. 
: 
:     In article #30714, [email-masked] (Ian! D. Allen 
:[NCFreeNet]) continued: 
: 
:::In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] says...
:::[...] Also, being in a position of authority 
:::implies a responsibility, and the obligation, to sometimes take action to 
:::correct a problem, they had some obligations to consider when they took 
:::their action.  That doesn't seem to be the case here, there seemed to be 
:::no official action.
::
::Lisa Donnely and I have now looked into the deletions.  She will post a
::statement about NCF involvement soon.  Sorry for the delay -- we are
::having problems contacting our News admin by phone and coordinating
::the opinions of various NCF Board members and staff.
::-IAN!  Ian! D. Allen  [email-masked]   System Administrator |Ottawa
:: The National Capital FreeNet     Libertel de la Capitale nationale    |Canada
:     
:     On Aug 10, 1995, I received a private message informing me that 
:the person who had deleted all of our posts was the News Administrator 
:Paul Tomblin, [email-masked]. He had been surrepticiously 
:canceling my posts prior to July 23 and on July 23, he cancelled the 
:whole lot. I'm seeing what I can do about restraining such covert and 
:arbitrary censorship. 
:John Turmel
------------------------------------------------------
 
:Article #31185 (31190 is last):
:From: [email-masked] (Paul Tomblin)
:Subject: Re: TURMEL: NCF did delete all our posts everywhere
:Date: Thu Aug 17 18:52:33 1995
:
:Original newsgroup line:
:>Newsgroups: tor.general,ont.general,can.general,can.taxes,can.politics,
::ncf.general,alt.conspiracy,sci.econ,alt.christnet.philosophy,nz.general,
::nz.politics,sci.engr,aus.general,aus.politics,uk.misc,uk.politics,
::ncf.sigs.business.freedata,can.legal,ncf.admin
:
:In a previous article, [email-masked] (John Turmel) said:
:>
:>Subject: TURMEL: NCF did delete all our posts everywhere
:> 
:>     Many of you may have noticed that on Sunday Sept. 23, all of our 
:>discussions on "TURMEL:" related topics were deleted from all 14 
:>newsgroups I cross-posted to. Also erased were all your responses. I 
:>wrote letter of complaint to the National Capital Freenet:
:> 
:
:I'm beginning to thing you really don't get it, do you Turmel?  I told you to
:stop massive cross posting, because it was causing lots of complaints.  You
:continued to cross post massively and inappropriately, so I took action and
:on a Friday a few weeks ago (Certainly NOT on Sunday Sept. 23 - it's only
:August on this planet) I deleted your posts.  I DID NOT DELETE ALL THE
:RESPONSES, unless they also came from an NCF member and they were also
:excessively cross posted.
:
:I also wrote you a letter stating once again, and maybe a bit more clearly
:than the first time, that the NCF will not tolerate excessive cross posting,
:which is defined at NCF as more than 10 groups for a single post or multiple
:copies of the same post.  So how you do you respond?  With this article,
:cross posted to EIGHTEEN newsgroups!  I'm sorry, but you've been warned, and
:you've had action taken against you before.  If you read what I wrote in that
:letter, you can probably guess what action I now must take - I'm going to
:cancel this message, and any other copies of it I find.
:
:If you have complaints against these actions, take it up with the NCF board,
:don't cross post it to hell and back.  If you are unable to follow NCF rules
:and guidelines, then go find yourself another net provider.  I'm sure if
:you're willing to spend enough, you'll find one that doesn't care what sort
:of net abuse is perpetrated by its members.  NCF does care, and NCF is not
:going to stand for it.
:-- 
:Paul Tomblin, Freenet News Administrator.  Currently living in Rochester, NY
------------------------------------------------------
 
:Article #31206 (31243 is last):
:From: [email-masked] (Lisa K. Donnelly)
:Subject: Cancellation of Turmel's Posts
:Date: Fri Aug 18 14:17:36 1995
:
:Mr. Turmel's post were cancelled by the NCF New Administrator. After
:repeated warnings Mr. Turmel continued to violate NCF News Administration
:protocols by continued excessive multiple and cross postings.
:
:We apologize for the inaccurate statement posted by the NCF Administrative
:Coordinator, Michael Anderson. He reacted immediately after the
:cancellation and prior to full research of the details.
:
:I had refrained from a formal posting myself as our News Administrator,
:Paul Tomblin, had contacted Mr. Turmel with all the details.
:
:The Board has confirmed the authority of the NCF News Administrator to
:cancel excessive multiple and excessive cross postings. These actions will
:be accompanied by a letter to the member in violation. This letter will be
:cced to the Executive Committee of the Board and the Complaints department.
:
:We hope that all NCF members will respect the on-line community we have
:all built together and share on a regular basis.  Ideally, normal
:conventions of what constitutes polite behavior and good citizenship is
:desirable - much like what one expects from the neighbors who live on
:your street or in your apartment building.
:
:These types of conventions can be ambiguous so it is also necessary to have
:guidelines. Here at NCF we try to keep our restrictions minimal. None
:the less, we do have criteria for appropriate use of the News system and
:are interested in maintaining safe and effective usage.
:
:In addition, I would like to remind the membership that item 6. in the NCF
:Membership Agreement deals with adherence to NCF rules and regulations.
:
:item 6. NCF Membership Agreement
:
:"To Abide by such rules and regulations of system use as may be set down
:from time to time by the Board of the National Capital FreeNet."
:
:Excessive cross postings and excessive multiple postings are an example of
:such rules and we have a News Administrator who monitors and requests
:compliance and good citizenship - and who takes action when news
:administration protocols are violated.
:
:Lisa K. Donnelly,   [email-masked]
:Executive Director, National Capital FreeNet
------------------------------------------------------
 
:Article #612 (637 is last):
:Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.announce,
:From: [email-masked] (Chris Lewis)
:Subject: EMP/ECP cancelled 
:Date: Tue Aug  8 10:40:35 1995
:-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
:The Breidbart Index (BI) is defined as the sum of the square roots of
:how many newsgroups each article was posted to.  This is a measure of
:Excessive Crossposting (ECP) also known as "Velveeta".
:The heuristics for cancels are based _only_ on one or more of the 
:following measures:
: 1) 25 or more separate copies of the article were posted (EMP), or
: 2) 5 or more separate copies of the article were posted and
:    the BI is > 30 (ECP), or
: 3) is a continuation of a previous EMP/ECP, within a 45 day
:    sliding window.  That is: if the articles posted within the
:    past 45 days exceeds the thresholds in (1) or (2), it
:    gets removed.  _Unless_ the originator has made a clear
:    and obvious effort to cease spamming (which includes an
:    apology and undertaking to do so in news.admin.net-abuse.misc).
:    This includes "make money fast" schemes which passed the
:    EMP/ECP thresholds several years ago.
: 4) broken gateways regurgitating old articles with new messageids.
:The first three are generically called "spam".  The fourth is a "spew".
:General consensus puts the spam cancel threshold strictly as a 
BI of 20.
------------------------------------------------------
 
     In my next post on the subject, I'll parse the latest responses 
and answer any charges. 
John C. Turmel, B. Eng.
****************************************************

---

From: [email-masked] (John Turmel)
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 20:00:17 GMT

[email-masked] (Paul Tomblin) wrote: 
 
:Much as I hate to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed 
:opponent, I feel I should correct the most egregious of the outright 
:lies in Turmel's latest spew.  Of course, I don't have the time to 
:correct all of them, because there are too many.
:
     This is a first. I've been accused many times of writing too 
much, writing where I'm not wanted but no one has ever accused me of 
lying before. I don't lie and lying in public is especially stupid as 
we'll soon see. 
 
:In a previous article, [email-masked] (John Turmel) said:
::     In it, I mentioned that I had received a private message on Aug 
::10 1995  informing me that the person who had deleted all of our posts 
::was the National Capital Freenet News Administrator Paul Tomblin, 
:Actually, I informed myself you on both occassions that I had 
:cancelled your posts, and why.
:
     So that isn't a lie. On Aug. 10, three weeks after the Great 
Deletion, I found out who did it through private mail. None of the 
ncf.general readers knew at that point. 
 
::[email-masked]. He had been surreptitiously canceling my 
::posts prior to Friday July 21 and on July 21, he canceled the whole 
::lot. 
::
:July 21st was the first time I had cancelled any of Turmel's posts.
:
     That's hard to believe. If we go over his first Aug. 10 letter to 
me titled "Net abuse," he also said: 
 
:Therefore, in the past I have cancelled many of your posts that were
:inappropriate.  One time my scripts returned a list of over 300 
:posts, and I did not have time to look at all 300.  Instead I looked 
:at 20 or so at random and discovered that all 20 of them were 
:actionable, so I cancelled the whole lot.  I regret that I might have 
:cancelled many posts that were not actionable, but at the time I had 
:no choice.
:
     After the Great Deletion, as noted by several people, I cut back 
on my posts from 3 or 4 a day to 14 newsgroups to 2 or 3 a week. There 
was never the opportunity after July 21 for Mr. Tomblin to have found 
300 of my posts to cancel. So July 21 was the only day when there were 
300 articles out there for Mr. Tomblin to cancel. Yet, he does say 
that in the past, he had been canceling many of my posts that were 
"inappropriate." Seems his own words belie his statement that he first 
cancelled me on July 21. I'd believe he first cancelled me everywhere 
on July 21 but I believe his own words that he'd been canceling me 
previous to the Great Deletion. 
 
::     I had mentioned that "I have no wish to get embroiled in an 
::possible civil court litigation with the NCF but the arbitrary 
::treatment I received must be explained."
::
:And it was.  I wrote to you to explain why I'd done it, and the NCF 
:Board has issued an official statement to explain that they support 
:my actions and why.
:
     No, the arbitrary treatment I received was not explained by NCF. 
We all thought it was a vandal. And you didn't write until two weeks 
after I'd complained. 
 
::     I know many consider it a breach of Netiquette to publish one's 
::private correspondence without permission but since one's mail is 
::admissible in any Canadian court of Justice, it's a Netiquette that is 
::voluntary but which has no basis in law. I've always tried to accord 
::
:Ah, well this is another violation of your user agreement, Turmel.  I 
:think the board would be very interested to see that you respond to 
:complaints about your violatiing your NCF agreement by further 
:violations of it.
:
     I would have figured that you wouldn't want the readers to know 
what you had written in your first letter but it's pretty tough for me 
to defend myself without telling them the whole truth. Though you'd 
hoped that Netiquette would have allowed to you hide your actions, 
since this could be justice-bound, I think the readers were entitled 
to know what you had said. 
 
::     Considering he not only has his finger on the "cancel" button 
::but is willing to use it unilaterally, I don't think it's unfair on 
::
:Look up the work "unilaterally" in a dictionary.  I have the full and
:complete support of the NCF Board of Directors for my actions.
:
     No, you didn't have support until after the fact. Otherwise, why 
did the NCF originally respond that it had been done by vandals and 
they usually contact a member before acting in that way. No one knew 
what you had been doing up until then and no one would have known had 
I not complained. 
 
::part to cite what he said in private in its entirety. I'm also 
::reposting some relevant posts that were canceled. 
::
:Ah.  So adding the 10 newsgroups that this is posted to, to the 
:dozens or so that they were posted to originally, we find you are 
:guilty once more of excessive multi posting, and therefore in further 
:violation of your NCF User Agreement.
 
     What's excessive? I could have reduced my newsgroups from 13 to 
10 if I had been told. And is 3 in excess of 10 really that massive an 
abuse when you first canceled my articles? 
     Not having worried about members' use of bandwidth before, I 
joined the Bandwidth Patrol in news.admins.net-abuse.announce and 
wonder if I had been announced. Older files were erased within days 
and I couldn't find out if there had been discussion on cancelling me 
or if Mr. Tomblin had simply deleted me all on his own. Yet I did 
notice that an index of abuse was used for other cancellations and I 
wonder why it wasn't used with mine. 
 
:The Breidbart Index (BI) is defined as the sum of the square roots of
:how many newsgroups each article was posted to.  
:
:This is a measure of Excessive Crossposting (ECP) also known as "Velveeta".
:The heuristics for cancels are based _only_ on one or more of the following
:measures:
:        1) 25 or more separate copies of the article were posted (EMP), or
:
     25! Or more! 1 copy to 14 newsgroups adds up to 14 copies, only 56%.
 
:        2) 5 or more separate copies of the article were posted and
:           the BI is > 30 (ECP), or
:
     No matter how you cut it, my 3 or 4 (3.5BI) articles rarely added up 
to over 15, let alone over 30. 
 
:        3) is a continuation of a previous EMP/ECP, within a 45 day
:           sliding window.  
     It was not a continuation of a previous EMP/ECP so, not having 
spammed, 
 
:That is: if the articles posted within the
:           past 45 days exceeds the thresholds in (1) or (2), it
:           gets removed.  _Unless_ the originator has made a clear
:           and obvious effort to cease spamming (which includes an
:           apology and undertaking to do so in news.admin.net-abuse.misc).
:           This includes "make money fast" schemes which passed the
:           EMP/ECP thresholds several years ago.
:        4) broken gateways regurgitating old articles with new messageids.
:The first three are generically called "spam".  The fourth is a "spew".
:General consensus puts the spam cancel threshold strictly as a BI of 20.
:
     During the rush of complaints, I was posting to 13 newsgroups. At 
the end, to 14. sqr(14) = 3.75 per post. For the last cancellation, my 
Breirbart Index went from 3.75 to 4.8. So what? It still doesn't even 
approach the BI= 20 or BI=30 for cancellations. So you can scream that 
13 is "massive cross-posting" when 10 is allowed but I don't think 
it's much of a case. Besides, I had explained how vandals were cross-
posting to an extra 23 newsgroups. I have many complaints about 
posting to groups I didn't post to. I'd like to know what percentage 
of the complaints NCF received which were from conferences to which I 
had not posted and how many were from conferences to which I had. 
 
::     On Sunday July 23, I found out that all my posts and those 
::of my correspondents for the last two weeks had been deleted from 
::
:This is another lie.  None of your correspondents posts' were deleted.
:
     No. I don't lie. It was certainly easy to check which I did. Why 
would I have claimed before I knew what you'd done that they had all 
been deleted if they had not. Since most of the topics responded to by 
other writers were titled "TURMEL," this could have happened if you 
searched for "TURMEL" in the title rather than "John Turmel" in the 
authors. But nevertheless, on the week-end of July 23, I found out 
that everyone's articles had been cancelled, not just mine, and 
complained accordingly. So I have not lied.   
 
::     I would like to know:
::     1) Why this was done? 
::     2) What discussions took place? 
::     3) How this was done? 
::
:     4) Who authorized that this be done? 
:These questions were all answered in detail BEFORE you posted this 
:diatribe.
:
     Readers of ncf.general and other newsgroups had been left with 
the impression that vandals were responsible and that no one from NCF 
had done it. I simply corrected the false impression with a little 
truth. So the gist of my complaint is the same. No one from NCF knew 
you were cancelling my articles on your own initiative. By your own 
statement, you cancelled 300 articles yet that could have only 
occurred on July 21 when there were 300 articles to be cancelled. And 
yet, you said that you had been cancelling them with no notice to me 
prior to the Great Deletion. 
     And therein lies the truth of my statement that you were 
cancelling them unilaterally, surreptitiously and without notice since 
no one at NCF knew what you were doing. 
 
     You also accused me of:
 
:- repeating the same message over and over again.
:
     Short of a few stock equations, most of my material was original. 
Besides, with new members joining everyday, if I want to post a 
certain poem or piece of information every few months, why shouldn't 
they get the same opportunity older members had? 
     The point is that you deleted my posts without any recourse to me. 
     I'd like to know when you first started surreptitiously canceling 
my articles. Did you keep a record? Where's the record? Why do they 
have the news.admin.net-abuse.announce newsgroup where things seem 
based on the Breidbart Index if you can cancel articles without 
telling anyone or being held to account for your computations? I see 
rules that say BIs of 20 or 30 or bad but you say the BI for my 
articles should be sqr(10) = 3.16. Is my BI=3.75 so massively worse 
than BI=20 for others that you don't' have to consult with anyone? I 
doubt it. 
     So, I think I've shown that I have not lied and that you have 
belied yourself. In public. What a sad spectacle. 
     And try to keep the timing in perspective. I'm not going to argue 
about your actions after NCF became aware of your actions and offered 
support until you've explained your actions before they became aware. 
     More parsing of your first articles in the next article. 
John C. Turmel, B. Eng.  
****************************************************

   From: [email-masked] (Frank Ch. Eigler)
Subject: (fwd) Re: TURMEL: Posts deleted without notice
   Date: Mon, 4 Sep 95 13:38 EDT
     To: fche
--------

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From: [email-masked] (John Turmel)
Subject: Re: TURMEL: Posts deleted without notice
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
Sender: [email-masked] (John Turmel)
Reply-To: [email-masked] (John Turmel)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Date: Mon, 4 Sep 1995 05:31:55 GMT
Lines: 303

Subject: Re: TURMEL: Posts deleted without notice
 
     Since I received no answer, I'll state my questions and 
objections again. In his last message, Paul Tomblin wrote: 
 
     Paul Tomblin, the (News Administrator) wrote: 
 
:the following inappropriate behaviours:
:- massive cross posting to inappropriate groups.
:
:excessive cross posting which is defined at NCF as more than 10 
:groups for a single post or multiple copies of the same post.  
:
     This is the first I've heard that 10 groups is the NCF limit. 
     Q. Why didn't he tell me? 
     Q. Was 13 really so "massively" in excess of 10 to warrant 
surreptitious cancellations? 
 
:- repeating the same message over and over again.
:
     Notice that at this point, there have been no details but I'm 
presumed guilty:
 
:Both of those behaviours are not allowed here on NCF, for the very simple
:reason that they are considered bad net.citizenship.  We cannot allow the
:misbehaviour of one person to make the entire user community of NCF look bad.
:I'm sure a promise to behave like a good net citizen would help
:your case tremendously.
:
     As yet, he hasn't told me what I've done wrong, only that I've 
been found guilty, punished and told to behave. 
 
:The behaviours I am asking you to cease are:
:- cross posting to groups that you do not read 
:
     Q. How can he possibly accuse me of not reading the groups I post 
to? 
 
:and to which your posts do not apply.  
:
     And so far, he haven't once detailed which posts did not apply 
to which newsgroups? In fact, no one ever has. 
 
:Most specifically, stop posting to regional hierarchies outside of
:your region.  Many complaints have resulted from your posting to 
:uk.misc and uk.general because your postings have nothing to do with 
:the United Kingdom.
:
     With 350 LETSystems and growing in their midst, I and my 
correspondents think that my posts on LETSystems were quite relevant 
to the United Kingdom even if those unfamiliar with it don't. 
 
:- Repeating the same posting again and again.
:
     Q. Having reposted very few articles other than some cancelled 
ones, I'd like more details on this. 
 
:So how you do you respond?  With this article,
:cross posted to EIGHTEEN newsgroups!  I'm sorry, but you've been warned, and
:you've had action taken against you before.  If you read what I wrote in that
:letter, you can probably guess what action I now must take - I'm going to
:cancel this message, and any other copies of it I find.
:
     With eighteen newsgroups, it looks like the BI=4.25, nowhere near 
the 20 referred to as necessary for cancellation.
     Q. What BI did he have for that particular cancellation? 
 
:If you have complaints against these actions, take it up with the NCF board,
:don't cross post it to hell and back.
:
     Sure I'll take it up with the NCF when my questions are answered 
but I think that people from those newsgroups who had their 
contributions cancelled have a right to know who did it.
 
:If you are unable to follow NCF rules
:and guidelines, then go find yourself another net provider.  I'm sure if
:you're willing to spend enough, you'll find one that doesn't care what sort
:of net abuse is perpetrated by its members.  NCF does care, and NCF is not
:going to stand for it.
:
     Q. "Net abuse?" "It?" I'm still waiting for details. 
 
:Much as I hate to get into a battle of wits with an unarmed 
:opponent, I feel I should correct the most egregious of the outright 
:lies in Turmel's latest spew.  Of course, I don't have the time to 
:correct all of them, because there are too many.
:
     Ditto. He wrote: 
 
:Actually, I informed you myself on both occassions that I had 
:cancelled your posts, and why.
:
     Yet, in his Aug. 10 letter, he admitted:
 
:Therefore, in the past I have cancelled many of your posts that were
:inappropriate.
:
     Q. Which is it? He cancelled my posts on only two occasions when 
he informed me or he cancelled many of my posts on many occasions 
without informing me? 
 
:One time my scripts returned a list of over 300 posts, 
:Instead I looked at 20 or so at random and discovered that all 20 of 
:them were actionable, so I cancelled the whole lot.  
:
     Sure. The majority of which I did not start:
 
1)   Subject: TURMEL DEVOURED BY SPACE GUPPY
     From: [email-masked] (Bill Stuart)
2)   Subject: CHRIST: Why does Turmel speak nonsense?
     From: [email-masked] (David Kendall)
3)   Subject: Re: Rising Kook: TURMEL & the differential bible
     From: karl mamer <[email-masked]> 
4)   Subject: TURMEL: My ego is so big that....
     From: [email-masked] (Christian Rose)
5)   Subject: Can we get Turmel out of here?
     From: Herman De Vries <[email-masked]>
6)   Subject: Turmet - Oops
     From: Herman De Vries <[email-masked]>
7)   Subject: TURMEL: headswell
     From: [email-masked] (Alan Hughes)
8)   Subject: Turmel and cross-posting
     From: [email-masked] (Jeff Gagnon)
9)   Subject: John Turmal And Ego's
     From: [email-masked] (Jeff Gagnon)
10)  Subject: John Turmel, Net Abuser Extraordinaire
     From: Lazarus <[email-masked]>
11)  Subject: WHO THE $#%@ IS TURMEL??????????
     From: [email-masked] (Vils M. DiSanto)
12)  Subject: Is Turmel the next Mutlu/Argic?
     From: [email-masked] (Sean Maguire)
13)  Subject: Re: Turmel's still here - Im gone
     From: [email-masked] (Lorie Lanktree)
14)  Subject: TURMEL: Kook of the Month Nomination
     From: [email-masked] (karl mamer)
15)  Subject: Re: Hey Idiot!
     From: [email-masked] (CyberKnght)
16)  Subject: Turmel...
     From: [email-masked] (Christopher Wright)
17)  Subject: Re: Can we do something about Turmel?
     From: [email-masked] (Mark Ogilvie)
18)  Subject: John Turmel
     From: [email-masked] (Sharon Collins)
19)  Subject: Re: Regardng John Turmel...
     From: Friday <[email-masked]>
20)  Subject: Can we have nz.general back please?
     From: [email-masked] (Bruce Simpson)
21)  Subject: My Dear Mr. Turmel
     From: [email-masked] (Andre L. Ouellette)
22)  Subject: ncf.general = ....TURMEL.... ???!??!
     From: [email-masked] (Scott D. Green)
23)  Subject: Get rid of this TURMEL guy
     From: [email-masked] (Elizabeth Douglas)
24)  Subject: GIVE TURMEL A SEX CHANGE, DEPORT HIM, AND CHARGE 
     HIM WITH HATE CRIMES
     From: [email-masked] (Bill Stuart)
 
:I'm beginning to thing you really don't get it, do you Turmel?  I 
:I told you to stop massive cross posting, because it was causing 
:lots of complaints.  You continued to cross post massively and 
:inappropriately, so I took action and on a Friday a few weeks ago 
:(Certainly NOT on Sunday Sept. 23 - it's only August on this planet) I 
:deleted your posts. 
:
     He makes it sound like he warned me "a few weeks ago" of massive 
cross-posting, that I had persisted and that he had taken action "a 
few weeks ago." Yet, in his Aug. 10 letter, he said: 
 
:It appears as if you, inspite of my warning of "a few days ago," are 
:continuing the following inappopriate behaviour...
 
     Q. Which is it? He cancelled me "a few weeks ago" after telling 
me to stop "a few weeks ago" or he cancelled me a "few weeks ago" 
after telling me to stop "a few days ago." Looks like I had not been 
warned a few weeks ago and he was acting unilaterally and 
surreptitiously. 
 
:July 21st was the first time I had cancelled any of Turmel's posts.
:
     But the evidence suggests the whole lot was cancelled on July 21.
 
:Therefore, in the past I have cancelled many of your posts...
 
     The evidence further suggests that these many posts were 
cancelled before July 21. He played the censor and found 20 of my 
articles "actionable?" 
     Q. How were they actionable? 
     Q. Why weren't these actionable items mentioned in the proper 
fora? 
     Q. Why wasn't I told that they were actionable? 
     Q. Where is the log of the many, not two, posts he cancelled? 
     Q. Does his job description include judging what is 
"appropriate?" 
     Q. Considering I was told that an effort is to be made to alert 
members, do I not have a right of appeal against his decisions? 
 
::     And that weekend, I found out that all my posts and those of my 
::correspondents had been deleted... 
::
:This is another lie.  None of your correspondents posts' were deleted.
:I DID NOT DELETE ALL THE RESPONSES, unless they also came from an NCF 
:member and they were also excessively cross posted.
:
     Not only were my and all my respondents' posts cancelled but 
all these and their respondents' posts also disappeared from the same 
13 newsgroups on the same day mine did. 
 
:Please be advised that several of the people who read and post to
:news.admin.net-abuse.announce have also expressed dismay at your behaviour,
:and may have also taken action against your posts.
:
     Q. Why is he trying to suggest that others who have expressed 
dismay may have been the vandals who may have also taken action 
against my posts? Despite his denials, the odds against it being 
coincidence that some real vandals were erasing all my respondents' 
articles and all those above articles at the very same time he was 
erasing mine are just too high for me to accept. 
 
::the arbitrary treatment I received must be explained."
::
:And it was.  I wrote to you to explain why I'd done it, and the NCF 
:Board has issued an official statement to explain that they support 
:my actions and why.
:
     No, the arbitrary treatment I had received was never explained to 
and would not have been explained to NCF members without my complaint. 
 
:These questions were all answered in detail BEFORE you posted this 
:diatribe.
:
     First, as you'll note in his messages, there were no details at 
all. And readers of ncf.general and other newsgroups had been left 
with the impression that vandals were responsible and that no one from 
NCF had done it and no one would have known had I not posted the 
"diatribe" since no one at NCF knew what he had been doing. 
 
     He also accused me of:
 
:- repeating the same message over and over again.
:
     Q. Are there any details? 
 
:Look up the work "unilaterally" in a dictionary.  I have the full and
:complete support of the NCF Board of Directors for my actions.
:
     No, you didn't have support until after the fact because the NCF 
originally responded that it had been done by vandals and that they 
usually contact a member before acting in that way. 
 
::part to cite what he said in private in its entirety. I'm also 
::reposting some relevant posts that were canceled. 
::
:Ah.  So adding the 10 newsgroups that this is posted to, to the 
:dozens or so that they were posted to originally, 
:
     Here's a perfect example of what I mean. After I've repeated many 
times that I posted to just over one dozen (13) newsgroups, that the 
vandals had posted to just under two dozen (23) more, he still insists 
on accusing me of originally posting to "dozens" in the plural. 
     I was framed for the second dozen newsgroups and he'd have known 
if I had been given the chance to explain where the other two dozen 
newsgroups and the other two dozen topics came from. 
 
     Q. Why weren't my cancellations announced like the real net 
abusers? 
     Q. What was my Breidbart Index when he cancelled my articles? 
     Q. What percentage of the complaints NCF received were from 
groups to which I had not posted and from groups to which I had? 
 
:I regret that I might have cancelled many posts that were not 
:actionable, but at the time I had no choice.
:
     You not only zapped many dozens of hours of my work but you also 
zapped the work of many others on a dozen serious topics:
 
"The Third Way?" 
"What National Debt?" 
"Greendollars are Timedollars in U.S.A." 
"Why did Christ speak in Parables?" 
"Rabson's Fable (amended)"
"Guinness Record for most elections"
"Christ's Bank Account." 
"Mathematics of Debt Slavery." 
"LETS Greendollar Press Reports" 
"Censorship." 
"Press Clippings." 
"Usury on sci.econ." 
"I'm a Pauper." 
 
     I thought they were very interesting streams and I'm sorry 
to see them gone from public view. Quite a few people found them 
"most entertaining." And my correspondents weren't given a warning or 
the chance to object either. 
 
     Q. I'd like to know when he first started surreptitiously 
canceling my articles? 
     Q. Did he keep a record? 
     Q. Where's the record? 
     Q. Why do they have the news.admin.net-abuse.announce newsgroup?
     Q. Why is he calling me the liar? One shouldn't look for the 
straw in the other guy's eye until one is rid of the log in one's own 
eye. 
John C. Turmel, B. Eng. 

-- 
Frank Ch. Eigler // [email-masked]
                // [email-masked]
               // [email-masked]