Subject: Re: Women's "defensive" violence

From: [email-masked] (aaron.l.hoffmeyer)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1993 04:25:39 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (ljf) writes:
>In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] (Dan Swartzendruber) writes:
>>Before you can *do* anything about a problem, you've got to get people
>>to admit there is one.  Two of the issues you mentioned (working
>>conditions and divorce custody) are ones that quite a few people on
>>this (and other) newsgroups won't admit exist (or aren't serious).
>>You speak as if it were self-evident that these problems exist and
>>if only we'd get off our asses and address them will things change.
>>Well, what makes you think Aaron (or I for that matter) *haven't*
>>been doing so?  Why does our trying to gain more support in this
>>forum merit the typical ad hominem attacks about "whining" and
>>"moaning"?
>
>But there's the rub, don't you see?  I'm a feminist and I see the
>system that Sheaffer proudly proclaims as natural (male dominance and
>all) as oppressive to men because the naturally dominant male is
>supposed to take care of himself.  You and Hoffmeyer (if I understand
>your positions) are not feminists, in fact, are against feminism.  I
>think until the sexism that is inherent in our culture is addressed,
>of course both women and men will be victims.  I don't see a similar
>belief in the corruption of the system in either your posts or
>Hoffmeyer's posts (what few I read since he's normally in my
>killfile).

Well, ljf, I won't speak for Dan, although I can imagine that our views
are not dissimilar, but I am aghast at your misinterpretations of the
volumes I have written in these forums.  Maybe because I am an advocate
for men in divorces, and because I have challenged tenets and
postulates of those proclaiming themselves to be feminists, you believe
that I am against feminism.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

I was always in favor of many of the tenets of feminism.  I always
believed that women should have equal opportunities, that they should
be compensated equally, that gender discrimination in any way, shape or
form should be illegal.

What separates me from many proclaiming themselves to be feminists is
that I don't believe women deserve special privileges or special
protection, nor that men deserve any special punishments--simply based
on their gender.

I believe that women can take a bullet in the middle of the chest as
well as any man.  I believe that women are just as capable and just as
intelligent or stupid as men.  Therefore, I believe that, if men are to
serve their country in combat, women should also serve.  I believe that
women can take exposure to lethal chemicals and radiation as well as
men.  I believe that they can handle falling off a skyscraper or
through a burning roof as well as men.  I don't believe women should be
exempt from dangerous jobs.

I believe that if this belief was adopted and implemented that women
would suddenly have much to lose in going to war, or in working in
hazardouse jobs, and might be more inclined to want to actively help
fix things.

I believe that women can be just as abusive, whether verbally or
physically, just as mean, and just as vicious as men.  I also believe
that men can be just as nice, just as caring, just as compassionate and
loving as women.  Therefore, I do NOT believe in discriminating against
either gender in any arena--including and especially in the arena of
domestic relations law which empowers women and awards them custody of
children in the vast majority of divorce cases, based solely on their
gender--justified before and after the fact as "the best interests of
children."

No, I've always believed in equality and equal opportunity.  I've
always believed in union, in the coming together of people and ideas
for the common good.

I don't believe that all tenets of those declaring themselves to be
feminists to be equal-minded or logical, and as such, don't buy all of
them.  I don't believe that women are better default parents (as many
feminists believe), and therefore, should always get custody of
children during divorces.  I believe that children need two good
parents, whether those parents are divorced or not.  I don't believe
that women are more valuable as people then men, and view things such
as the Violence Against Women Act as implying that women are the
greater victims of violence in this country, and that they are somehow
more deserving of justice or compensation because of their gender.  I
view violence as a problem of everyone in our society.  It should be
addressed as such.  If men are more often the perpetrators of violence,
we should look at why they are violent, objectively.

I'm an equalist, and I therefore believe that all men and women 
are equal and should be considered equal in every way.

If some feminists take great exception to my views and my desires for a
completely level playing field, I can't do anything about that.  But, I
believe I'm not only logically correct, I'm morally correct in my
analysis and beliefs.  Such a view discriminates against no one.  If I
can't be considered a feminist because I'm an equalist, in your book,
well, so be it.  Just because I don't hate men doesn't mean that I DO
hate women.  I also don't believe I have to wrap up the whole bundle of
the beliefs of all feminists and buy into the whole thing, lock, stock
and barrel, just because they are the beliefs of feminists.  That would
be very naive.  I don't buy into anything like that--just because it
comes with the politically correct label.

I see many problems that I would like to see corrected.  This country
is literally a mess.  We have the highest Gross National Product of any
nation on earth, yet we owe the most money, both as individuals ($720
billion) and as a whole ($4 trillion).  We have the highest crime rates
and highest poverty rates of any civilized, industrialized nation.  We
have the highest percentage of citizens incarcerated of any developed
country (455 per 100,000 people -- next is South Africe, land of the
political prisoner and racist oppression with just over 300 prisoners
per 100,000 people).  These are some of the MOST pressing problems, but
amount to nothing more than the tip of a vast iceberg of societal
problems humans face.  I would like for us to consciously and
objectively work at solving all these problems, together.  I don't want
to sit back and point fingers and blame the he-males for everything.
Even if 99.9999999% of all men are pickup truck-driving, beer-swilling,
wife beaters, in a nutshell, B-A-D, and all our problems are the result
of men, so what?  What do we do to fix these things?

But, alas, since I am in your killfile, you will never read my views and
will, I assume, continue to misrepresent them to the world.

Thanks,

Aaron L. Hoffmeyer
[email-masked] 

P.S.  By the way, I believe that both women and men are capable of
taking care of themselves and are equally responsible for themselves.
But neither are islands, and, to get by, we often need the assistance
of others--men and women, equally, together.

I am not anti-feminism.  I am an equalist, a humanist, if you will.
The facets of feminism that are a subset of humanistic and equalistic
theory, I support whole-heartedly.  The subset that is misandrist and
purports action to spite and hurt men, I cannot support.  So, I am in
favor of the National Organization of Women when they are working
towards equality for men and women.  However, they are on the opposite
side of the fence when the issue is ensuring that children are not torn
from their fathers as part of divorces in this country.  NOW and other
similar groups have repeatedly used misandrist and false propaganda to
short-circuit joint custody legislation throughout the US.  That puts
me at loggerheads with them.  But that doesn't make me anti-anything
... except lies.

NOBODY HOME
	- R. Waters
 
I've got a little black book with my poems in
I've got a bag with a toothbrush and a comb
When I'm a good dog they sometimes throw me a bone
I got elastic bands keeping my shoes on
Got those swollen hand blues.
Got thirteen channels of shit on the T.V. to choose from
I've got electric light
And I've got second sight
I've got amazing powers of observation
And that is how I know
When I try to get through
On the telephone to you
There'll be nobody home
 
I've got the obligatory Hendrix perm
And I've got the inevitable pinhole burns
All down the front of my favorite satin shirt
I've got nicotine stains on my fingers
I've got a silver spoon on a chain
I've got a grand piano to prop up my mortal remains
I've got wild staring eyes
I've got a strong urge to fly
But I've got nowhere to fly to
Ooooh Babe when I pick up the phone
There's still nobody home
 
I've got a pair of Gohills boots
And I've got fading roots.