From soc.women Wed Jul 22 13:37:54 1992 Path: utcsri!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!ames!sun-barr!news2me.ebay.sun.com!male.EBay.Sun.COM!exodus.Eng.Sun.COM!peregrine!falk From: falk@peregrine.Sun.COM (Ed Falk) Newsgroups: soc.women Subject: "They" (Was: Re: Take Back the Dildo) Message-ID: Date: 21 Jul 92 21:50:34 GMT References: <1992Jul9.051031.25899@leland.Stanford.EDU> <1992Jul9.212756.17009@auto-trol.com> <1992Jul10.172234.8764@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> <1992Jul15.002938.24591@smds.com> <1992Jul15.124217.7502@vax.oxford.ac.uk> <1992Jul20.225344.17110@smds.com> Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca. Lines: 165 NNTP-Posting-Host: peregrine In article <1992Jul20.225344.17110@smds.com> sw@ishmael.UUCP (Steve E. Witham) writes: > > >Using "they" as the sexless singular is: > 1) not what they teach in U.S. schools either, >AND 2) a construction used by many people out of laziness or ignorance, >AND 3) IMHO, eventually going to be standard English because of #2. AND 4) IMHO, a good thing. >That's my guess about how language evolution works--the language needs >something new, old constructions get twisted to fit, teachers complain, >then they stop complaining and make it mandatory. In a while, "they" will >be like "you," either singular or plural, depending on context. Also, it's not all that new (neither is this thread). Here's something on the topic I clipped from the net some years ago: In article <625@mindlink.UUCP>, a80@mindlink.UUCP (Greg Goss) writes... >The various attempts to introduce neuter pronouns all failed. Since there was >a need for these, they evolved on their own. The third person SINGULAR neuter >possesive pronoun is now "THEIR". This usage has been accepted in general >conversation for most of the eighties. No, I'm afraid that's wrong. "Their" has been accepted for 1980, 1880, 1780, 1680, 1580, 1480, and probably 1380, but we don't know that it was accepted before that. That's only 7 out of the 20 80's there have been in our numbering scheme -- 7 out of 20 is not most of the eighties. Seriously, "they", "them", and "their" have been used as the singular for 600 years. The following citations from the OED and elsewhere were posted by Steven Pemberton, CWI, Amsterdam; steven@mcvax.uucp (an address several years old). SIX HUNDRED YEARS, and they're still on probation with some people! THEY 2. Often used in reference to a singular noun made universal by every, any, no, etc., or applicable to one of either sex (= `he or she'). See Jespersen Progress in Language 24. 1526 Pilgr. Perf. (W. de W. 1531) 163b, Yf,.a psalm scape ony persone, or a lesson, or else yt they omyt one verse or twayne. 1535 FISHER Ways perf. Relig. ix. Wks. (1876) 383 He neuer forsaketh any creature vnlesse they before haue forsaken them selues. 1749 FIELDING Tom Jones viii. xi, Every Body fell a laughing, as how could they help it. 1759 CHESTERF. Lett. IV. ccclv. 170 If a person is born of a gloomy temper .they cannot help it. 1835 WHEWELL in Life (1881) 173 Nobody can deprive us of the Church if they would. 1858 BAGEHOT Lit.Stud. (1879) II.206 Nobody fancies for a moment that they are reading about anything beyond the pale of ordinary propriety. 1866 RUSKIN Crown Wild Olives 38 (1873) 44 Now, nobody does anything well that they cannot help doing. THEM 2. Often used for `him or her', referring to a singular person whose sex is not stated, or to anybody, nobody, somebody, whoever, etc. 1742 RICHARDSON Pamela III. 127 Little did I think..to make a..complaint against a Person very dear to you,..but dont let them be so proud..as to make them not care how they affront everybody else. 1853 Miss YONGE Heir of Redclyffe xxliv, Nobody else..has so little to plague them. 1874 DASENT Half a life II. 198 Whenever anyone was ill, she brewed them a drink. THEMSELVES 5. In concord with a singular pronoun or sb. denoting a person, in cases where the meaning implies more than one, as when the sb. is qualified by a distributive, or refers to either sex: = himself or herself. a. 1464 Rolls of Parlt. V. 513/2 Inheritements, of which any of the seid persones..was seised by theym self, or joyntly with other. c 1489 CAXTON Sonnes of Aymon i. 39 Eche of theym..make theymselfe redy. 1533 MORE Apol. 55b, Neyther Tyndale there nor thys precher..hath by theyr maner of expounyng..wonne them self mych wurshyp. y. 1600 SHAKS. Lucr. 125 Eury one to rest themselues [ ed. 1594 himselfe] betake. 1654-66 EARL ORRERY Parthen. (1676) 147 All that happened, which every one assured themselves, would render him a large sharer in the general joy. 1874 DASENT Half a life 3 Every one likes to keep it to themselves as long as they can. THEIR 3. Often used in relation to a singular sb. or pronoun denoting a person, after each, every, either, neither, no one, every one, etc. Also so used instead of `his or her', when the gender is inclusive or uncertain. (Not favoured by grammarians.) 13.. Cursor M. 389 (Cott.) Bath ware made sun and mon, Aither wit ther ouen light. c 1420 Sir Amadace (Camden) 1, Iche mon in thayre degre. 14.. Arth. & Merl. 2440 (Kolbing) Many a Sarazen lost their life. 1545 ABP. PARKER Let. to Bp. Gardiner 8 May, Thus was it agreed among us that every president should assemble their companies. 1563 WYNGET Four Scoir Thre Quest. liv, A man or woman being lang absent fra thair party. 1643 TRAPP Comm. Gen. xxiv. 22 Each Countrey bath their fashions, and garnishes. 1749 FIELDING Tom Jones vii, xiv Every one in the House were in their beds. 1771 GOLDSM. Hist. Eng III. 241 Every person..now recovered their liberty. 1845 SYD. SMITH Wks. (1850) 175 Every human being must do something with their existence. 1848 THAKERAY Van. Fair xli A person can't help their birth. 1858 BAGEHOT Lit. Studies (1879) II. 206 Nobody in their senses would describe Gray's `Elegy' as [etc.]. 1898 G.B SHAW Plays II Candida 86 It's enough to drive anyone out of their senses. Other quotes (Not OED) SHAKESPEARE God send everyone their heart's desire. THAKERAY No one prevents you, do they? GEORGE ELIOT I shouldn't like to punish anyone, even if they'd done me wrong. WALT WHITMAN ..everyone shall delight us, and we them. ELIZABETH BOWEN He did not believe it rested anybody to lie with their head high... LAWRENCE DURREL You do not have to understand someone in order to love them. DORIS LESSING And how easy the way a man or woman would come in here, glance around, find smiles and pleasant looks waiting for them, then wave and sit down by themselves. [ And let's not forget Oscar Wilde's "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- J.C.] -- edp (Eric Postpischil) "Always mount a scratch monkey." -ed falk, sun microsystems sun!falk, falk@sun.com terrorist, cryptography, DES, drugs, cipher, secret, decode, DSS, FBI, NSA, CIA, NRO, SDI, communist, proletariat.