18 April 2001
Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of New York; (212) 805-0300.

This is the transcript of Day 31 of the trial, 18 April 2001.

See other transcripts: usa-v-ubl-dt.htm


   2   ------------------------------x


   4              v.                           S(7)98CR1023

   5   USAMA BIN LADEN, et al.,

   6                  Defendants.

   7   ------------------------------x

                                               New York, N.Y.
   9                                           April 18, 2001
                                               9:45 a.m.


  12   Before:

  13                       HON. LEONARD B. SAND,

  14                                           District Judge













   1                            APPEARANCES

            United States Attorney for the
   3        Southern District of New York
   4        KENNETH KARAS
            Assistant United States Attorneys

   7        Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage

            Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh
  12        Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali

  14        Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed


  16            (In open court; jury not present)

  17            THE COURT:  Is there anything that has to be

  18   addressed before the jury comes in this morning?

  19            MR. SCHMIDT:  Yes, your Honor, there is.  I am going

  20   to make available to the government this morning a number of

  21   exhibits that I do not plan to publish to the jury now, but

  22   I'm going to be asking the witness to identify them, so at a

  23   later time when we resolve all the issues that I know the

  24   government is going to have, that we don't need to recall this

  25   witness.


   1            The second thing is that a number of those exhibits

   2   and other documents that --

   3            THE COURT:  Just stop there.  But you are going to

   4   move them in evidence?

   5            MR. SCHMIDT:  I'm not going to move them in evidence.

   6            THE COURT:  Have the witness identify them, but not

   7   move them in evidence.

   8            MR. SCHMIDT:  Basically lay a foundation for it so I

   9   will be able to submit them in evidence without the necessity

  10   of recalling that witness and give the opportunity to the

  11   government to cross-examine on foundation aspects of the

  12   documents.

  13            Secondly, having worked hard in preparing all those

  14   documents, preparing our transcripts, and trying to do

  15   stipulations with different witnesses, it has become apparent

  16   that to put it all together, including the need to lay a

  17   foundation for witnesses the government does not want to call,

  18   that we are finding it difficult to have everything prepared

  19   in a manner to give the government adequate notice of which

  20   exhibits and taped conversations that we want to put in.

  21            I am obviously aware of your Honor's statements

  22   yesterday.  We had hoped with the difficulty the government

  23   had that we could have it more organized and prepared.  It has

  24   become apparent that the government's cross-examination of

  25   this witness will be relatively short, and there is another


   1   witnesses that we have, and prepared to go forward with, we

   2   may have a gap on Thursday or at best our presentation will be

   3   highly disjointed.

   4            Therefore, in order for us, we have a number of

   5   witnesses outside the state who are coming in for Monday.  I

   6   am requesting that, and I hesitate to make this request, but I

   7   think it is beneficial to the jury, really beneficial to our

   8   team, that we not sit on Thursday and we're allowed to have

   9   four days which we will be working all four days to get our

  10   material in order, give the government sufficient notice and

  11   copies of the materials, allow them to review it so we can

  12   have a smooth and proper presentation next week of the defense

  13   case.

  14            As your Honor is also aware because of Somali issues

  15   I've been on the phone more than I had hopped, which takes up

  16   a lot of time.  So my application at this time is for us not

  17   to sit on Thursday.

  18            THE COURT:  There is another alternative, and that is

  19   you've taken one witness out of sequence already, and that is

  20   utilize Thursday for some other defendant.

  21            I've been handed a note from a juror.  I want to

  22   thank you for your patience and flexibility in allowing us to

  23   leave earlier yesterday.  The earlier time helped make

  24   circumstances easier and smoother.  Thanks very much.

  25            Is there another defendant who has a witness who can


   1   proceed on Thursday without any great hardship?

   2            MR. RICCO:  Judge, the problem is that based on

   3   representations that we had --

   4            THE COURT:  If the answer is no, the answer is no.

   5            MR. RICCO:  No.

   6            THE COURT:  No one?

   7            MR. RICCO:  Judge, I think we are the only ones that

   8   are putting forth a defense case, we being Odeh, and even

   9   though we do have witnesses ready to go as early as Monday and

  10   Tuesday, we didn't think it was going to be an issue at this

  11   time.

  12            THE COURT:  Does the government have any view on

  13   that?

  14            MR. FITZGERALD:  No.

  15            THE COURT:  Is it a certainty that you won't have

  16   anything for Thursday, because if I notify the jury it enables

  17   them to make plans.  I believe it enables defense --

  18            MR. SCHMIDT:  I'm sorry, your Honor.

  19            THE COURT:  They have to have a certain number of

  20   days to know this or else.

  21            MR. SCHMIDT:  I understand that.

  22            THE COURT:  You're saying that you don't want to sit

  23   tomorrow?

  24            MR. SCHMIDT:  Yes.

  25            THE COURT:  I will allow that, and only because of


   1   the unexpected circumstances that you stated to the Court in

   2   ex-parte conference.

   3            All right.  Does the government have any objection to

   4   the witness identifying documents?

   5            MR. FITZGERALD:  No, if I could just see what they

   6   are.  It may be that if it's authentication we may stipulate

   7   to it.  I don't want anything prejudicial discussed.

   8            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, it is simply going to be

   9   identifying a number of documents taken and copied and other

  10   documents as to for El Hage as to whose handwriting he

  11   recognizes and whose signature he recognizes.  Those are the

  12   only documents.  That's the only thing I planned to do with

  13   this witness, except for one particular document which is

  14   indicated to me that he prepared.

  15            MR. FITZGERALD:  If I could see them.

  16            MR. SCHMIDT:  I'm trying to separate them now, your

  17   Honor.  One additional tape recording --

  18            THE COURT:  You also have a briefing issue.

  19            MR. DRATEL:  Your Honor, we did not receive the

  20   government's until yesterday in court.  We're trying to do

  21   research.  Tonight I'll be writing it.

  22            MR. SCHMIDT:  We have one additional that we're going

  23   to need, so we'll be able to give the government the

  24   documents.

  25            THE COURT:  Why don't you give the government the


   1   documents you want to have the witness identify and let me

   2   know when you're ready.  And since it's tomorrow, I think I

   3   will wait until this afternoon before telling the jury that

   4   they are not sitting tomorrow.

   5            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, we greatly appreciate that.

   6            THE COURT:  Let me know when you're ready.

   7            (Recess)

   8            (In open court; jury not present)

   9            THE COURT:  The jury is on their way.

  10            MR. SCHMIDT:  Just briefly, there is a photograph I

  11   was going to offer and have the witness make some

  12   identification but not offer it into evidence at this time of

  13   certain children in front of the house.

  14            The government has agreed to stipulate as to the

  15   identity of the children and the location of the photograph

  16   was taken, reserving its right to object to relevance at a

  17   later time.  It was not be properly connected yet without

  18   other witnesses, and, obviously, I don't want to bring this

  19   witness back.

  20            MR. FITZGERALD:  That's correct, Judge.  We have

  21   probably a strident three or four objections but not an

  22   authentication one.

  23            MR. SCHMIDT:  Thank you.




   1            (Jury present)

   2            THE COURT:  The witness may resume the stand, please.

   3   Mr. Schmidt, you may resume.

   4            Mr. Odeh, the Court reminds you you are still under

   5   oath.

   6    MOHAMED ALI ODEH, resumed.

   7   DIRECT EXAMINATION(Continued)

   8   BY MR. SCHMIDT:

   9   Q   Good morning.

  10   A   Good morning to you.

  11   Q   I'm going to show you a number of documents and ask you a

  12   few questions concerning the documents.

  13            THE COURT:  Please don't volunteer anything.  Just

  14   answer the direct question that will be asked.

  15            THE WITNESS:  Okay.

  16            MR. SCHMIDT:  I apologize, your Honor.

  17            (Pause)

  18            MR. SCHMIDT:  Before we get to those documents I have

  19   one that I can show Mr. Odeh.

  20   Q   Let me show you what is marked defense exhibit WEHX-JJ.

  21            I apologize.  It is marked JJJ.

  22            MR. FITZGERALD:  No objection.  We can receive this

  23   document in evidence.

  24            MR. SCHMIDT:  Thank you.  Can we publish it then to

  25   the jury.


   1            THE COURT:  JJJ received in evidence.

   2            (Defendant's Exhibit WEHX-JJJ received in evidence)

   3   Q   You have that in front of you and you have it on the

   4   screen.  Do you recognize this document?

   5            Do you recognize that piece of paper?

   6   A   Yes, I know this.

   7   Q   What is that piece of paper?

   8   A   This is was preparation, this is a paper I do about

   9   preparation for Black Giant and the business and how much each

  10   body paid.

  11   Q   Now, on the right hand, on the top on the right-hand side

  12   it said paid by, and under that it's M A and WE.  Can you tell

  13   us what the M A stands for?

  14   A   Mohamed Ali.

  15   Q   The WE?

  16   A   Wadih El Hage.

  17   Q   Under the letters K small SH what does that stand for?

  18   A   Kenya shilling.

  19   Q   The numbers that are below that, what are they?

  20   A   Number of Kenya shilling which we paid.

  21   Q   Now, I note that there are different names under the area

  22   of subject.  You see the different names like, for example,

  23   after tourmaline, it's David.  About six lines, seven lines

  24   down?

  25   A   Yes.


   1   Q   Who is that David?

   2   A   David Muswa.

   3   Q   And below that is amethyst there is a Simon.  Who is

   4   Simon?

   5   A   Simon is the, is the guy who travels to Zambia with

   6   Mr. Wadih.

   7   Q   Under Simon it says trip to Machakos.  Where is Machakos?

   8   A   Sorry, Machakos.

   9   Q   Where is Machakos?

  10   A   It is in part of Kenya, one district in Kenya.

  11   Q   Now, next to March there is an entry, Ibrahim office.  Who

  12   is that Ibrahim?

  13            Let me ask this question.  Who is the person who paid

  14   the money to Ibrahim's office?

  15   A   He had his own office.  He was buying amethyst, I think I

  16   think one office in Standard building.

  17   Q   Below that SHK Suliman?

  18   A   Yes, Sheik Suliman.

  19   Q   And under H there is the name Joseph?

  20   A   Brother of Simon.

  21   Q   Under J David?

  22   A   The same person, David Mutwa.

  23   Q   Now, under January 6th it says Regis and Ahmed.  Do you

  24   recall who they are?

  25   A   Yes, this is two person who had specialist in the stones


   1   for selection of the stone.

   2   Q   What was the purpose of keeping this list?

   3   A   The balancing sheet this one.

   4   Q   Who actually prepared this list?

   5   A   Myself.

   6   Q   I'm going to show you now a number of exhibits that are

   7   marked WEHX-J53 -- excuse me.  J93, J94, J95, J96, J98, J108,

   8   J120, J121, J122, J124, J126, J127, and J131.

   9            Now, I ask you to look at I believe the first one on

  10   top which is J93.  Are you familiar with Mr. El Hage's

  11   signature?

  12   A   Yes, it is his signature.

  13   Q   You're familiar with it in the Arabic language?

  14   A   Yes, he send for me some letters and he sign in this way.

  15   Q   Are you familiar with his signature in the English

  16   language?

  17   A   What?

  18   Q   Are you familiar with how he writes his name when he's

  19   writing in the English language as well?

  20   A   Yes.

  21   Q   Are you generally familiar with his handwriting?

  22   A   Yes.

  23   Q   Now, I ask you to look at WEHX-J93 to look at the bottom

  24   which has a circle on that.  Whose signature do you recognize

  25   that to be?


   1   A   93?

   2   Q   Yes.

   3   A   Wadih.

   4   Q   I ask you to look at the letter in general, the body of

   5   the letter, and whose handwriting does that appear to be?

   6   A   You see it seem to be his handwriting.  You know I'm not

   7   specialist in letters, but to me it is his handwriting.

   8   Q   Now, I ask you to look at now WEX-J94, the next one.  Why

   9   don't you put down the one that you looked at, turn it over

  10   and put it on the side so we don't get them mixed up.

  11            Now, that's a document that has a number 2 at the

  12   bottom; is that correct?  1 on top and 2 at the bottom; is

  13   that right?

  14            (Witness consults with interpreter)

  15   A   Yes, correct.

  16   Q   Now, whose handwriting do you recognize this to be?

  17   A   Yes, Mr. Wadih's.

  18            JUROR NO. 9:  Excuse me, Judge, I need a moment.

  19            THE COURT:  You need a moment.  You want to take a

  20   recess?

  21            JUROR NO. 9:  Yes.

  22            THE COURT:  Sure.

  23            (Recess)

  24            (Juror No. 9 returns)

  25            JUROR NO. 9:  Thank you, your Honor.


   1            THE COURT:  Mr. Schmidt, you may proceed.

   2   Q   I think we're up to exhibit WEHX--J95.  Do you see the one

   3   that we're talking about, Mr. Odeh?

   4   A   The subject?

   5   Q   The document?

   6   A   1 and 2?

   7   Q   J95 at the bottom.  You see that one?

   8   A   Yes, I saw it.

   9   Q   Okay.  Now, whose signature does that appear to be at the

  10   bottom?

  11   A   Wadia.

  12   Q   Whose handwriting does that appear to be on the base of

  13   the letter?

  14   A   That seem to me his handwriting.

  15   Q   Now, I ask you to take a look at what's been marked as J96

  16   in the upper right-hand corner, the next document.  Now, whose

  17   handwriting does that appear to be on that document?

  18   A   Wadia also.

  19   Q   I ask you to look at the next document which is WEHX-J98?

  20   A   Yes.

  21            THE COURT:  Is that the question that is going to be

  22   asked with respect to each of these?

  23            MR. SCHMIDT:  That is correct.

  24            THE COURT:  Suppose you ask him with respect to all

  25   of these whether he can recognize the handwriting.  Do we have


   1   to do this all one at a time?

   2            MR. SCHMIDT:  I can probably put some together.

   3   Q   I ask you to take a look at that exhibit.  Whose

   4   handwriting does that appear to be on that letter?

   5   A   98, Wadia.

   6   Q   Now, I ask you to look at now 108 and 119.  Look at both

   7   of those.  I ask whose signature at the bottom appears on both

   8   of those letters?

   9   A   Wadia's signature.

  10   Q   And the body of the letter --

  11   A   Also Wadih.

  12   Q   Please let me finish, sir.  Whose handwriting does that

  13   appear to be on both of those letters?

  14   A   Wadih.

  15   Q   Thank you.  I'm going to hand you up a number of other

  16   exhibits.  They are WEHX-J1, J92, J132, J133, J134, J135,

  17   J136, J144, J149 slash 150; J363, and J -- withdrawn, J362,

  18   J363, and J364.

  19            THE COURT:  The question with respect to those is

  20   what?

  21            MR. SCHMIDT:  Is going to be the same questions, your

  22   Honor, but I am going to ask first as to some of the other

  23   exhibits.  I will try to combine the ones that have both, are

  24   similar.

  25   Q   As to J120, whose signature does that appear to be at the


   1   bottom?

   2   A   Wadih's signature.

   3   Q   The body of the letter, whose handwriting does that appear

   4   to be?

   5   A   Wadih.

   6   Q   I'm going to ask you to look at new J121, the document

   7   that's mostly in English.  Excuse me.  The document in

   8   English.  I ask you to look at the bottom of the English

   9   handwriting of Wadih El Hage, the signature.  Who does that

  10   appear to be?

  11   A   Wadih El Hage.

  12   Q   Now, I ask you to look at J122, 124, those two documents

  13   and I ask you to look at the bottom and tell me whose

  14   signature that appears to be?

  15   A   Wadih, yes.

  16   Q   I ask you to look at the body of the letters.  Whose

  17   manned writing does that appear to be?

  18   A   Wadih.

  19   Q   I ask you to look at exhibit 126 and 127 -- excuse me --

  20   J126 and J127.  That's numbers and writing in English.  Whose

  21   handwriting does that appear to be to you?

  22   A   Wadih.

  23   Q   I ask you to look at -- do you have J1 in front of you?

  24   Do you have J1 in front of you?

  25   A   Yes, J131.


   1   Q   Do you have J1?

   2   A   Yes, I have J1.

   3   Q   Okay.  Could you tell me whose handwriting that appears to

   4   be?

   5   A   This is Wadia.

   6   Q   Do you have J92 in front of you?

   7   A   Yes.

   8   Q   Whose signature --

   9   A   Wadih.

  10   Q   -- appears on that?

  11   A   Wadia's signature.

  12   Q   And whose handwriting generally appears on that document?

  13   A   Can you repeat what you say?

  14   Q   Whose handwriting?

  15   A   Wadih's.

  16   Q   Thank you.

  17            Now, I ask you to look at now J131 and J132 and J133

  18   and J134, and I ask you whose handwriting do these documents

  19   appear to be, in whose handwriting do these documents appear

  20   to be?

  21   A   All of it, all of this Wadih handwriting.

  22   Q   Now, I ask you to look at J135.  And whose signature

  23   appears at the bottom of the page?

  24   A   Wadih's signature.

  25   Q   Whose handwriting appears on the rest of the letter?


   1   A   Same, Wadih.

   2   Q   I ask you to look at J136.  And whose handwriting appears

   3   on that document?

   4   A   Wadih handwriting.

   5   Q   I ask you to look at J144, a document that's in English.

   6   Mostly in English.  Whose handwriting does this appear to be?

   7   A   Wadih.

   8   Q   Whose signature appears at the bottom?

   9   A   Also Wadih.

  10   Q   I ask you to look at document 149/150 and I ask you whose

  11   handwriting appears on the upper portion, not the typewritten

  12   but the upper portion of the document, that's a longer sheet.

  13   A   The handwriting of Wadih.

  14   Q   I ask you now to look at J362, 363, and 364.  Whose

  15   handwriting appears on those documents?

  16   A   Wadih handwriting.

  17            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, at this time we wish to

  18   read one hopefully last transcript that Mr. -- that is exhibit

  19   WEX-W35, and the English transcription is WEX-W35-T.

  20            MR. FITZGERALD:  No objection.

  21            THE COURT:  W35T received.

  22            (Defendant's Exhibits WEX-W35 and WEX-W35-T received

  23   in evidence)

  24            MR. DRATEL:  Mr. Larsen will read the receptionist

  25   and I will read the part of Wadih and Mr. Larsen will also


   1   read Simon as well.

   2            THE COURT:  The date of the conversation?

   3            MR. DRATEL:  The date of the conversation is April

   4   11, 1997.

   5            MR. SCHMIDT:  Mr. Dratel, we'll get it on the screen

   6   in just a minute.

   7            (Pause)

   8            THE COURT:  Why don't you read it without the

   9   display.  There it is.

  10            RECEPTIONIST:  Service desk.  May I help you.

  11            WADIH:  Good afternoon.  May I speak to Simon, room

  12   319, please.

  13            RECEPTIONIST:  Simon.

  14            WADIH:  Yes.

  15            RECEPTIONIST:  Okay, but your voice is low.

  16            WADIH:  It's far.

  17            SIMON:  Hello.

  18            WADIH:  Hello Simon.

  19            SIMON:  How are you?

  20            WADIH:  Fine.  How are you?

  21            SIMON:  How are you my friend?

  22            WADIH:  Fine, fine.  How are you?

  23            SIMON:  I'm here but I've been stranded for almost

  24   four days, my friend.

  25            WADIH:  Why?  What's happened?


   1            SIMON:  This guy from Italy is not back.  This man he

   2   left.  He left here only $200 and he went out.  I left, I

   3   found the money here in the hotel.

   4            WADIH:  Uh-huh.

   5            SIMON:  Now I'm still waiting.  They say he might

   6   come today.

   7            WADIH:  Okay.

   8            SIMON:  So if he don't come today I have to leave

   9   tomorrow, very early in the morning.

  10            WADIH:  Uh-huh.

  11            SIMON:  And arrive there (inaudible) evening.

  12            WADIH:  Okay.

  13            SIMON:  Because I cannot stay for more, the hotel

  14   will still charge and I (inaudible) I tell them I pay them

  15   when I get my money from the guy from Italy.

  16            WADIH:  I see.  Where is he?

  17            SIMON:  So I'm very sorry for not ringing.  I had no

  18   money.

  19            WADIH:  I see.

  20            SIMON:  I just rang to your wife and gave you the

  21   number so that you might, so that you ring back to me.

  22            WADIH:  Yes, yes.

  23            SIMON:  Sure, how is Mr. Mohamed?

  24            WADIH:  He's okay.  He was waiting for your call for

  25   a long time.


   1            SIMON:  Yes, I had, you know, I had no money.  I just

   2   arrived here without money and I found $200 here for me.

   3            WADIH:  Uh-huh.

   4            SIMON:  And I didn't spend even the money I'm still

   5   holding the money.

   6            WADIH:  Okay.

   7            SIMON:  So that if I don't get more money I have to

   8   leave tomorrow morning.

   9            WADIH:  Yes.

  10            SIMON:  To come and arrive there in the evening.

  11            WADIH:  So when are (inaudible) those Italian guy.

  12            SIMON:  The Italian man we rang through the embassy.

  13            WADIH:  Uh-huh.

  14            SIMON:  They say the problem of, in the embassy, I

  15   mean, you know, he works for the embassy.

  16            WADIH:  Yes.

  17            SIMON:  Now they tell me they are expecting him not

  18   before the end of the month.  I say I am too poor, I don't

  19   have money.

  20            WADIH:  Uh-huh.

  21            SIMON:  They say they are going to fax him.  If they

  22   can allow, if he tell them to him to pay here they can get

  23   money for me.

  24            WADIH:  I see.

  25            SIMON:  So if I will be in Nairobi I will ring them


   1   in the embassy.

   2            WADIH:  Uh-huh.

   3            SIMON:  If the money arrives I just come collect from

   4   the embassy.

   5            WADIH:  Is the embassy in Nairobi?

   6            SIMON:  No, the embassy here in Kumpala he work here.

   7            WADIH:  Okay.

   8            SIMON:  Yeah.

   9            WADIH:  So why do you want to ring them from Nairobi?

  10   Why don't you do this while you're over there?

  11            SIMON:  No, I've already running here.

  12            WADIH:  Uh-huh.

  13            SIMON:  They say let us wait for one week.

  14            WADIH:  One week.

  15            SIMON:  Yeah.  I should wait for one week, because

  16   they make a fax for him.

  17            WADIH:  Uh-huh.

  18            SIMON:  Through their, through the headquarters in

  19   Italy, in Rome.

  20            WADIH:  Yeah.

  21            SIMON:  Now they say I should wait for one week and

  22   we get the reply, if we say they could pay the money.

  23            WADIH:  Uh-huh.

  24            SIMON:  They could give me the money.  It's okay.

  25            WADIH:  Okay.


   1            SIMON:  Yeah, but for the other guy who had the other

   2   money.

   3            WADIH:  Uh-huh.

   4            SIMON:  He left $200.

   5            WADIH:  Uh-huh.

   6            SIMON:  Which he says the rest the rest is $250

   7   remaining with him because it was about 28,000, 26,000.

   8            WADIH:  I see.

   9            SIMON:  Kenyan shillings.

  10            WADIH:  Okay.

  11            SIMON:  Yeah.  So I got the money and I don't like to

  12   use it until I leave tomorrow.

  13            WADIH:  I see.

  14            SIMON:  If he is not arriving back.

  15            WADIH:  Okay.

  16            SIMON:  Yeah, but I have to come back here on Tuesday

  17   here in Kumpala, I am just coming here because of family

  18   problems and meet you also.

  19            WADIH:  I see.

  20            SIMON:  And I give you what I have.

  21            WADIH:  I see.

  22            SIMON:  Yeah.

  23            WADIH:  Okay.

  24            SIMON:  Sure.  I'll be leaving tomorrow morning, hey?

  25            WADIH:  You're leaving tomorrow morning?


   1            SIMON:  But can you ring me here tonight.

   2            WADIH:  Hum?

   3            SIMON:  Can you ring tonight?

   4            WADIH:  For what?

   5            SIMON:  For what, no, I was thinking you ring tonight

   6   to confirm whether I leaving tomorrow morning.

   7            WADIH:  Okay.  Well, I'll ring it's okay but whenever

   8   you get to Nairobi you call me.

   9            SIMON:  Oh, so it's okay.  Getting Nairobi I'll call

  10   you and you come and meet me in the evening.

  11            WADIH:  Uh huh.

  12            SIMON:  Because I have to pass direct to home.  I

  13   cannot sleep in Nairobi.

  14            WADIH:  I see.

  15            SIMON:  It's better you wait me at the bus.

  16            WADIH:  Where are you, I don't know when the bus will

  17   come in, sometimes it's delayed one hour, half and her, one

  18   hour.

  19            SIMON:  A Kumpa bus, no a Kumpa bus normally arrives

  20   there at 5:30.

  21            WADIH:  Hm.  In the evening?

  22            SIMON:  Yeah, most it arrives there at 5, 35:30.

  23            WADIH:  In the evening or in the morning?

  24            SIMON:  In the evening.  If I leave tomorrow very

  25   early in the morning.


   1            WADIH:  Uh-huh.  Okay.

   2            SIMON:  Sure, it's better we meet.

   3            WADIH:  Yeah, if I'm not there, just call me and I'll

   4   come to you.

   5            SIMON:  You'll come to me?

   6            WADIH:  Yeah.

   7            SIMON:  Okay, thank you.

   8            WADIH:  Okay.

   9            SIMON:  Bye.

  10   BY MR. SCHMIDT:

  11   Q   Did you have any conversations relating to stones with

  12   Mr. El Hage after his first trip to Pakistan?

  13   A   Can you repeat your question, pleas?

  14   Q   Did you talk about any stones with Mr. El Hage after he

  15   returned from his first trip to Pakistan?

  16   A   Yes.

  17   Q   And could you tell us what that conversation was about?

  18   A   If you refer to my previous communication from Hong Kong

  19   with El Hage I ask him about tourmaline, and I told him to

  20   contact David or Ali.  When Mr. El Hage went to Pakistan he

  21   brought with him some sample of tourmaline and other stone

  22   blue lapaze.

  23   Q   That pronounced, spelled L-A-P-A-Z-E?

  24   A   Yes, blue lapaze.

  25   Q   Blue.  And what did you tell him about the tourmaline?


   1   A   It is not according to my specification.

   2   Q   And what discussions did you have about the lapaze?

   3   A   He tried to, he say there is some lot for some people in

   4   Pakistan, and he want to sell it.

   5   Q   And there was understanding -- was there an understanding

   6   the second time he went to Pakistan in the summer of --

   7            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection, leading.

   8   Q   -- in the summer of 199 --

   9            MR. SCHMIDT:  Excuse me?

  10            THE COURT:  There is an objection.  Complete your

  11   question.

  12   Q   Was there an understanding with you between you and Mr. El

  13   Hage at the time that you went to summer of 1997 that there

  14   was going to be some efforts to obtain the lapaze?

  15            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to leading.

  16            THE COURT:  It is leading.

  17   Q   Were there any discussions with you with Mr. El Hage

  18   concerning attempting to obtain the lapaze blue?

  19            MR. FITZGERALD:  Same objection.

  20            THE COURT:  As an amateur gemologist I object also

  21   I think you're talking about lapis.

  22            MR. SCHMIDT:  It's think it's lapis, I understand

  23   that and I think Mr. Odeh pronounces it lapaze, but I think

  24   your Honor is correct.

  25            THE COURT:  Ask the question nonleading.


   1   Q   Were there discussions concerning stones before you went

   2   to the Far East and Mr. El Hage went to Pakistan?

   3   A   I say yes.

   4   Q   And what was that discussion?

   5   A   About he brought some sample of tourmaline and I reject

   6   that sample and he say that consignment in Karachi exact in

   7   Karachi about lapaze, and if you find the market for that

   8   stone and a stone dealer for that I have to look for market.

   9   Q   Now, did you at times when you were dealing and looking

  10   for stones in Kenya or the area around Kenya, travel with

  11   Mr. El Hage to different dealers and mining locations at

  12   times?

  13   A   We travel one for one stone.

  14   Q   What stone?

  15   A   One stone.

  16   Q   What type of stone was that?

  17   A   Moonstone, M double O-N.

  18   Q   Now, were you aware --

  19   A   Sorry, also for chrysoprase when we go for chrysoprase.

  20   If you have listen to previous conversation Mr. Daniels call

  21   him to come go to bring the samples.

  22   Q   Now, were you aware of any particular projects that Mr. El

  23   Hage was working on for his nongovernmental organization?

  24   A   What you mean about it?

  25   Q   Were you aware of a project that he was discussing


   1   about --

   2   A   Yes, he telling me that he is making project for fighting

   3   mosquitos in Kenya.

   4   Q   Who was that discussion -- were you present with the

   5   discussion with another person?

   6   A   With Dr. Masoy, and Mr., Dr. Masoy ask him if he make that

   7   same project in his location.

   8   Q   Now, did you have a discussion with Mr. El Hage concerning

   9   registering his nongovernmental organization in a place other

  10   than Kenya?

  11   A   I ask him why he did not this company in America itself

  12   because America has a lot of money and has a lot of

  13   nongovernment can assist you in your projects.

  14   Q   What did Mr. El Hage say to you?

  15   A   He say that he will try.

  16   Q   Did he indicate that he was having some difficulty?

  17   A   Difficulties in Kenya, of course.

  18   Q   What kind of difficulties in Kenya?

  19   A   Money problems.  For that he have to work in a store, and

  20   he have to work in other thing to collect some money for his

  21   family.

  22   Q   Now, in Mr. El Hage's office -- withdrawn.

  23            You were in Mr. El Hage's office own a number of

  24   occasions, is that correct?

  25            (Witness consults interpreter)


   1   A   His office and his house for that when I was there

   2   receiving my call I go.

   3   Q   Did you see in the office any Arabic newspapers?

   4   A   Sorry, I couldn't remember.

   5   Q   Have you ever heard of the newspaper al Queds?

   6   A   I saw it in New York before yesterday but I did not buy

   7   it.

   8   Q   Did you ever see it before then?

   9   A   No.

  10   Q   Have you ever seen it in Kenya?

  11   A   No, but there is Alhya in Kenya it is come Alhya I never

  12   see al Queds.

  13   Q   Now, you know the name of Usama Bin Laden now, don't you?

  14   A   It is becoming a famous name in the newspapers now, but I

  15   did not know him before this occasion.

  16   Q   When was the first time that you heard of the name of

  17   Usama Bin Laden?

  18   A   When is come after the incident in Kenya about two, three

  19   months.  Usually I'm in the interested in news.

  20   Q   Well, did you see any coverage of Mr. Bin Laden in the

  21   news prior to the bombing of the embassy in Kenya?

  22            (Witness consults interpreter)

  23   A   No.

  24   Q   Now, the name, the word Sayed, is that, could that be a

  25   name of a person?


   1   A   It can be a name and it can be a nickname.  If I say to

   2   you Sayed Mohammed it means sir.

   3   Q   Sir or Mr. Mohammed?

   4   A   Or Mr., yes.

   5   Q   After Mr. El Hage was arrested in September of 1998 have

   6   you had any contact with him at all?

   7   A   How I couldn't remember.

   8   Q   Have you had any telephone calls or letters from Mr. El

   9   Hage?

  10   A   I couldn't remember how he can call also to make.

  11            MR. SCHMIDT:  Thank you.  I have no further

  12   questions, your Honor.

  13            THE COURT:  Cross-examination, government,

  14   Mr. Fitzgerald.

  15            MR. FITZGERALD:  Thank you, Judge.



  18   Q   Good morning, sir.

  19   A   Good morning to you, sir.

  20   Q   My name is Pat6 Fitzgerald and I represent the government.

  21   Please if you do not understand my questions, either because

  22   of language or if I speak too fast, please just say so.  Okay?

  23   A   Thank you very much.

  24   Q   Now, you've answered a number of questions.  Let me start

  25   with a couple of questions that you answered this morning.


   1            Regarding Mr. El Hage's handwriting, you are familiar

   2   with Mr. El Hage's handwriting in English?

   3   A   Yes, not so familiar, because sometime he was writing

   4   notes in English.

   5   Q   You're familiar with his handwriting in Arabic?

   6   A   Yes, because he sinned for me letter.

   7   Q   You're familiar with his signature in English?

   8   A   Yes.

   9   Q   And you're familiar with his signature in Arabic?

  10   A   Yes, because he sign in Arabic to me.  I know it.

  11   Q   And this morning you were shown a number of documents,

  12   defense exhibits which are to your left.  Do you recall that?

  13   A   Yes.

  14   Q   And you recognized Mr. El Hage's handwriting on those

  15   documents, correct?

  16   A   I told you I am not a specialist in clarifications of

  17   writings, okay?  But to me from the first sign to me, the sign

  18   it is Wadih.  The handwriting is similar to what letter I

  19   receive for that it is his handwriting.

  20   Q   So that appears to you to be Mr. El Hage's handwriting on

  21   those documents which bear defense exhibit stickers, correct?

  22   A   Yes.

  23   Q   Has anyone shown you any exhibits with yellow Government

  24   Exhibit stickers on them, yellow stickers?

  25            (Witness consults interpreter)


   1   A   Sorry, no.

   2   Q   Why don't we display on the screen, 615A-C, Government

   3   Exhibit.

   4            MR. FITZGERALD:  I apologize.  I'll come back to the

   5   correct number later.

   6   Q   With regard to WEHX-JJJ, which you should have in front of

   7   you, which is the list of stones that is something you created

   8   that is typewritten --

   9   A   Yes.

  10   Q   Could you tell us what year that is for?  Can you tell

  11   us -- it indicates the left the date says January, entries for

  12   February and March, and goes back to March, February and

  13   January.  Do you know what year that is?

  14            (Witness consults interpreter?

  15   A   1997.

  16   Q   And if you look on that exhibit, and we can place it on

  17   the Elmo, if you could focus February appears twice on that

  18   exhibit.  The second time February appears in the left column

  19   under others, and it says under there March 20 visa, and then

  20   beneath that it says February expenses, 500, and to the right

  21   there is an X, correct?

  22            Does that indicate that the expenses for Wadih El

  23   Hage in February were 500 shillings.

  24            (Witness consults interpreter)

  25   A   No, sorry.  Maybe there is misunderstanding on that.  This


   1   is a balancing sheet.  At that time we are preparing two, for

   2   that we have to prepare how much I pay and how much he pay.

   3   The thing which is across it means my payment, my cash payment

   4   for these items.  The thing which is he crossed, his payment,

   5   he pay for the company.

   6   Q   So did Mr. El Hage pay 500 Kenyan shillings in expenses in

   7   February, if you look at the lower left corner of the screen?

   8   A   Where expenses now?

   9   Q   Under the word, others.  Do you see the word others?  If

  10   you look at the screen it might be easier.  It says under

  11   others, it says David, and then there is a March 20 entry?

  12   A   David, yes.

  13   Q   Now, look two lines below it, it says February expenses?

  14   A   Yes, mean transport to give some people to go to come, to

  15   you, yes.

  16   Q   That's 500 Kenyan shillings?

  17   A   Yeah of course 500, all this is Kenyan shillings.

  18   Q   The right column indicates the checkmark indicates it was

  19   paid by WE, Wadih El Hage?

  20   A   Yeah, WE, Wadih El Hage.

  21   Q   So would that indicate that Wadih El Hage's expenses for

  22   February, 1997 were 500 Kenyan shillings?

  23            (Witness consults interpreter)

  24   A   No, sorry.  If you will go ahead to the amethyst, amethyst

  25   on 25th, 27, 27, and so on you find Wadih El Hage pay for


   1   Simon, ten thousand, okay?  Trip to Machakos 1,500, telex and

   2   telephone call to Simon, 700.  Trip to Zambia, 44,000.  This

   3   is all paid by Mr. Wadih El Hage.

   4   Q   Good.  That's what I'm trying to find out.

   5            If we take his expenses before February 25, 1997, the

   6   top column, the top expenses are all after February 25th,

   7   correct?

   8   A   What?

   9   Q   Those expenses at the top of the page, the February 25th

  10   and 27th are expenses paid by Mr. El Hage after February 25th

  11   that concern a loan in Nairobi, a trip to Machakos,

  12   M-A-C-H-A-K-O-S, telephone and telex expenses, and a trip to

  13   Zambia, correct?

  14   A   Yes.

  15   Q   Besides that, the other listing for expenses for Mr. El

  16   Hage in February, 1997, is at the bottom of page it shows an

  17   expense of 500 Kenyan shillings, correct?

  18   A   550 I think.  500, yes, it's 500.

  19   Q   And these would be Mr. El Hage's expenses in February 1997

  20   for Black Giant, correct?

  21   A   Correct, yes.

  22   Q   And 500 Kenyan shillings, approximately how many dollars

  23   would that be?

  24   A   About five dollars, six dollars.

  25   Q   Okay.  Now we'll come back to that.


   1            You mentioned in your testimony the last couple of

   2   days that there was a gentleman who asked you to get visas in

   3   Kenya for two Sudanese men and that you contacted Wadih El

   4   Hage as a result of that.

   5            Do you recall that testimony?

   6   A   Yes, very clearly to me.

   7   Q   Okay.  Let me show you what's been received in evidence as

   8   Government Exhibit 604.

   9            If we could display on the screen pages 1 and 2 of

  10   604 which are passport-size photographs.  If you could look at

  11   the photographs displayed on the screen and tell us which, if

  12   any, of those photographs are the two Sudanese gentlemen for

  13   which you asked Wadih El Hage to get a visa?

  14   A   No one from these.

  15   Q   None of these?

  16   A   None.

  17   Q   And if you could now go back and look at those

  18   photographs --

  19   A   No.

  20   Q   -- one at a time and tell us if you know any of these

  21   people?

  22   A   No, I did not know anyone and it is not the people whom I

  23   sent the faxes for him.  No one from this at all.

  24   Q   So in your course of dealings with Wadih El Hage and Black

  25   Giant business you've never met any of these people depicted


   1   in Government Exhibit 604, correct?

   2   A   I couldn't see any one of these faces at all.  Sir, I want

   3   to ask a question.  The one, the small one in the left, this

   4   is Wadih when he's small or what?

   5   Q   I'm not allowed to give answers, but after court today

   6   we'll talk.

   7            If we could go back to the exhibits, let me show you

   8   what's been marked as Government Exhibit 437A.  Can we put

   9   that up on the screen 437A.

  10            I just ask you to look at that document and in fact

  11   I'll hand up a copy if you want to look at it.  My only

  12   question to you is whether or not you recognize the

  13   handwriting on that document?

  14   A   The handwriting?

  15   Q   Yes?

  16   A   Definitely Wadih and his signature on the top.

  17   Q   Thank you, sir.

  18   A   Thank you.

  19   Q   Now, sir, are you familiar with the name Abdul Sabbur,

  20   A-B-D-U-L, S-A-B-B-U-R?

  21   A   Sorry, you have to give me full name, because Abdul Sabbur

  22   in Middle East you find one or two million people.  The name

  23   Mohammed is about 50 million.  When you give me a name in

  24   Arab's name or any name, give it full name.  Abdul Sabbur, I

  25   never hear one name in Abdul Sabbur in Kenya completely 15


   1   years.

   2   Q   Let me take that answer.  You heard los of people called

   3   Abdul Sabbur or no in Kenya?

   4   A   No, I never hear the name Abdul Sabbur.  Maybe Abdallah,

   5   yes, but Abdul Sabbur I never hear because it mean in English

   6   the servant of the patient.  It is no meaning to me.

   7   Q   So you've heard Abdallah, A-B-D-U-L-L-A-H?

   8   A   Abdallah many, yes, million of people.  Then there maybe

   9   more than 500 people Abdallah.  In the street you say Abdallah

  10   himself his son Abdallah.

  11   Q   Let me ask you specifically, have you ever heard Wadih El

  12   Hage referred to as Abdul Sabbur?

  13   A   No.  Abdul Abdallah.  In Arabic language let me tell you,

  14   sorry, from the people who are here, let me explain one very

  15   important point.  Maybe it is for many people missed.  I am

  16   educated people, person.  If I speak English in rough

  17   language, this is because I am Arabic.

  18            In the Arab country, you find one million in the same

  19   family, in my family I have about 15 one his name Mohammed.

  20   For that if ever call you want Mohammed, Mohammed, who listen?

  21   For that it is a tradition that you will state in the name of

  22   the son or the elder son.  If he have no son, we have to name

  23   as Abdallah, my nickname, but what, how did come?  Abdallah is

  24   called Abdi for that Mohammed.  This is the way call that when

  25   you have to give name either you have to hear the name or his


   1   nickname.

   2   Q   Okay.  I'll just ask you a simple question.

   3   A   Yes, please.

   4   Q   You never knew Wadih El Hage as Abdul Sabbur, correct?

   5   A   I never know him on that name.  I know him as Abdallah and

   6   I know his wife Am Abdallah.

   7   Q   Now, let me talk to you about the company called Black

   8   Giant.

   9   A   Yes, sir.

  10   Q   Let me approach you with what has been marked as

  11   Government Exhibit 300U as in Uganda.

  12            Now, sir, I approached with you a copy of a document

  13   marked as Government Exhibit 300U for identification.  I just

  14   ask you to look at that document and tell me if you recognize

  15   what it is?

  16   A   This is a company Black Giant, agreement of understanding

  17   and this is the first step to establish a company in Kenya,

  18   but Black Giant I want to see the original copy for that, I

  19   can't understand, because it was handed by Mr. Wadih when we

  20   do this company.

  21   Q   Let me just focus on the letterhead.  Did you see

  22   letterhead on that document, 300U that says Black Giant?

  23   A   Yeah, this is Black Giant, but maybe it's not the

  24   memorandum cover.  Maybe this is a head letter he have to

  25   prepare about it.


   1   Q   And you call that a head letter?

   2   A   Yeah, head letter, maybe, but not no memorandum.

   3   Q   And my questions, to make it easier, are only focused

   4   exactly on the letterhead or head letter.  Is that the head

   5   letter of Black Giant?

   6   A   Sorry.  Black Giant is registered as a memorandum but it

   7   is not registered as a company, okay?  Because after we make

   8   the memorandum to the lawyer or the attorney there are other

   9   step to register the company officially.

  10   Q   Okay.  Could you just focus on my question.  Whatever

  11   Black Giant is, is this the letterhead for Black Giant, yes or

  12   no?

  13   A   No, it is, it was the head letter.  Maybe it is an idea

  14   because Black Giant I told you it is not registered officially

  15   at that time.

  16   Q   Did you ever create a letterhead or head letter for Black

  17   Giant?

  18   A   We put some ideas, but not we put a letterhead.  Ideas

  19   now.

  20   Q   And did you discuss using the PO box, the post office box

  21   of Wadih El Hage for Black Giant being post office box 72239?

  22   A   Maybe he tried one of the directors at that time he have

  23   to put his idea, but we to the, as I told you, sorry to say or

  24   confusing people, Black Giant we put as memorandum.  After

  25   memorandum we have the steps to have letterhead registration


   1   officially in the department, different department, then take

   2   telephone for, fax number, so on.

   3            For that this is an idea come out.  For that he use

   4   his letter.  I don't know about it.

   5   Q   Just focus on my question.  In talking about Black Giant,

   6   did you discuss with Wadih El Hage using the post office box

   7   72239 and the phone number 820067 on the letterhead?  Yes or

   8   no?

   9   A   To use the telephone number, maybe, yes, because we have

  10   to use the telephone number for my own conversation, yes.  But

  11   PO box, I couldn't remember.

  12   Q   Okay, fair enough.  We'll come back to Black Giant in a

  13   moment.

  14            You mentioned a person the other day by the name of

  15   Harun and let me display Government Exhibit 110 in evidence.

  16   Do you recognize that person?

  17   A   Yes.

  18   Q   Who is that?

  19   A   Harun.

  20   Q   How do you know Harun?

  21   A   I met him sometimes in Mr. Wadih house.

  22   Q   Now, let me ask you a question.  How did you get along

  23   with Harun on a personal basis?

  24            (Witness consults interpreter)

  25   A   Sorry to say in the court it was very bad relation because


   1   I don't like his attitude at all of the.  He's very rude.

   2   Q   Did you have a particular problem with Harun on an

   3   occasion?

   4   A   No, only I don't like his behavior.  For that I far away

   5   from him.

   6   Q   Did you ever visit the home of Wadih El Hage while Wadih

   7   El Hage was away traveling but Harun was there?

   8            (Witness consults interpreter)

   9   A   During absent you mean?

  10   Q   I'm sorry.  Was there a time when Wadih El Hage was

  11   traveling that you went to Wadih El Hage's home and met with

  12   Harun or saw Harun there?

  13   A   I couldn't remember, maybe when Wadih come after the house

  14   I was there, maybe I saw him there.  Maybe I saw him there,

  15   but I don't sure.

  16   Q   Do you recall if there ever was an occasion where Harun

  17   would not let you use Mr. El Hage's telephone?

  18   A   Maybe I ask and he refused.  Maybe I asked his, maybe.

  19   I'm not sure also because Mr. Wadih allow me to use his

  20   telephone in my conversation, but I told you he's very rude

  21   with me, because I don't like his behavior.

  22   Q   Okay.  Now, you've talked about a number of tapes and

  23   transcripts the last couple of days and some of those were

  24   taped conversations that you participated in, correct?

  25            You were one of the speakers, correct?


   1   A   I was?

   2   Q   You spoke on some of the tapes that were played in court,

   3   correct?

   4   A   Yes, that's correct, yes.

   5   Q   Some of the tapes they spoke about you, correct, but you

   6   were not on the conversations, correct?

   7   A   Yes.

   8            (Continued on next page)



















   1   Q   And sometimes you just listened to other people talk but

   2   you helped us try to figure out what they were talking about,

   3   correct?

   4   A   The voice, something, yes.

   5   Q   What I would like to do now is to show you Government's

   6   Exhibit 211A.  I would like to put 211A-T up on the screen,

   7   transcript, and we have 211A cued up so that you can hear it

   8   in the Arabic while we watch in the English translation.  To

   9   move things along I am going to tell you beforehand some of

  10   the questions --

  11   A   Can I interrupt you please for a little bit, if you can

  12   put for me in the Arabic, because I find a lot of mistakes in

  13   the translation in English.

  14   Q   OK, we will play for you in Arabic.

  15            I have put an English transcript in front of you and

  16   we will put an English transcript on the screen.  We will play

  17   the Arabic in the relevant portions.

  18            To help orient you, you testified the other day

  19   regarding Wadih El Hage Exhibit W13T a phone call of February

  20   7, 1997, at 20:19 p.m. in the evening.  This is a phone call

  21   on the same telephone, the same day, February 7, 1997, a half

  22   hour earlier, involving a Harun and a Mustafa.  To start, we

  23   are going to just play the first two pages first, and before I

  24   ask you that, do you know where Wadih El Hage was in February

  25   1997?  Do you know if he took a trip?


   1   A   What?

   2   Q   Do you know where Wadih El Hage was in the early part of

   3   February 1997?

   4   A   I don't know.  I couldn't remember.  Just a minute,

   5   because I was outside of the country at that time, I remember,

   6   myself.  February 1997?

   7   Q   Yes.  Let me ask you this.  Do you know if Wadih El Hage

   8   went to Pakistan or Afghanistan in early February 1997?

   9   A   I know he went to Pakistan but I did not know to

  10   Afghanistan.

  11   Q   Do you know when that was?  Do you know if that was in

  12   February of 1997?

  13   A   I couldn't remember the date.

  14   Q   What we are going to do is, we are going to play the first

  15   two pages of the call in Arabic to you.  We will display the

  16   first two pages on the screen.  I would like to see if you can

  17   help us figure out where Wadih El Hage was at the time of this

  18   call, February 7, 1997.

  19   A   '97?

  20   Q   1997.

  21   A   But this is not in Arabic.

  22   Q   We are going to play the Arabic conversation.

  23            (Tape played)

  24   Q   We will stop there at 4:33.  Did you hear --

  25   A   I hear, but I did not recognize any one of these funny


   1   voices, not, because I never hear these voices.

   2   Q   These are not people that you are familiar with from your

   3   work with Wadih El Hage, correct?

   4   A   No.

   5   Q   Did you hear the statement that a few days ago your friend

   6   over there had called, the big one, he said your friend had

   7   arrived?  Can you tell us anything about who that was, if you

   8   know?  (Interpreted)

   9   A   No, sorry.

  10   Q   Then we will skip to page 5 of the transcript and we will

  11   start at counter 6:10, and we will listen to two pages.  I am

  12   going to ask you to focus on the question whether or not the

  13   person Harun was the same person you identified in a call a

  14   half hour later is talking about you during this conversation.

  15   Starting at 6:10, page 5 of the transcript, and we will play

  16   it through the end of page 6.

  17            (Tape played)

  18   A   I did not know this.  I did not understand.

  19            (Playing continued)

  20   Q   Sir, do you hear the people talking one of whom is

  21   identified as Harun in the transcript as someone who wanted to

  22   use the office and they were working with a head letter with

  23   the address and the phone number?

  24   A   Yes.  This make me surprised.  First of all, he say that I

  25   make that office for him.  I never go to that office and I did


   1   not know because still we are not planning.  It mean that he

   2   mean somebody, not me.  He not mean me at all on this subject.

   3   Q   Did you hear this person talking about someone who came

   4   begging to use the --

   5   A   No, I never beg.  I am proud.  Never I am begging.  I can

   6   go to telephone immediately.

   7   Q   I am not asking whether he is describing your conduct

   8   accurately.  Even if he is being unfair, is he describing you

   9   when he talks about the person who wants to use the phone to

  10   call Hong Kong?

  11   A   No, sorry.  Nobody can.  I am very well known in the

  12   Christian community and the Muslim community and the Buddhist

  13   community.

  14   Q   Did you ever go to Wadih El Hage's home and try to use the

  15   phone to call Hong Kong while Harun was there?

  16   A   I couldn't remember, but I never go to Wadih house when

  17   Wadih is not available.  This is our tradition.  I will never

  18   go to anyone's house when the owner is not available.  Either

  19   he requested me, I will never go.

  20   Q   Would you answer the question, do you know if you ever

  21   went to Wadih El Hage's house and tried to use the phone to

  22   call Hong Kong while Harun was there?  Yes or no.

  23   A   Is Wadih is there or not, also can you clear your

  24   question, please.  If Wadih is not there, I never go.  If

  25   Wadih is there, maybe yes.


   1   Q   Did Harun ever tell you not to use the phone to call Hong

   2   Kong?  Yes or no.

   3   A   I couldn't remember.

   4   Q   And the reference --

   5   A   Sorry.  Harun couldn't tell me that.  I told you I am very

   6   proud person.  I can beat him.  I am not a small kid.  I am 61

   7   years now.

   8   Q   If we could focus on the language at the bottom of page 6

   9   where it says his wife says if the telephone, the man's wife,

  10   she says that also the telephone, that the guys over there may

  11   shoot him.

  12            Do you have any idea who they are talking about

  13   there?

  14   A   What?

  15   Q   Do you have any idea who they are talking about in that

  16   passage on page 7?  Page 6, sorry.  Bottom of page 6.  If you

  17   don't know, just say you don't know.  I just want to know if

  18   you know who they are talking about.

  19   A   No.

  20   Q   If we can just go back to page 1 and display the header on

  21   page 1, where it indicates that there is Harun speaking and a

  22   person by the name of Mustafa, also known as Khalid.

  23   A   I did not know this name and for that either Harun maybe

  24   he replied twice in a different voice.  Also his voice, I

  25   couldn't recognize it.


   1   Q   Did you recognize it on the phone call transcript you

   2   talked about the other day for the same phone?

   3   A   No, I couldn't recognize his voice.

   4   Q   If you look ahead -- if we could display on the screen

   5   Government's Exhibit 117, photograph.  Do you know that

   6   person?

   7   A   No.

   8   Q   If we could display on the screen a different version of

   9   that photograph, Government's Exhibit 4-13.  Do you recognize

  10   that photograph or does the name Mustafa Fadhl or the name

  11   Khalid help at all?

  12   A   No, I do not recognize.  Maybe they are the same one.

  13   Q   But you don't know that person?

  14   A   I couldn't recognize this person.

  15   Q   You indicated earlier this morning that you talked to

  16   Mr. El Hage about stones after he came back from Pakistan,

  17   correct?

  18   A   That's correct, yes.

  19   Q   In the document you put in Wadih El Hage Exhibit JJJ,

  20   which I believe you have in front of you, you will agree with

  21   me that there is no expense listed for Black Giant for

  22   February 1997 for a trip to Pakistan, correct?

  23   A   Of course.  It is not necessary.  Black Giant is not

  24   responsible about that trip or about the expenses.  Nobody,

  25   Black Giant is not also responsible about my trip to Hong Kong


   1   and to China, because Black Giant is Kenya.  Any business can

   2   be done on his own.  The benefit can be shared, not the

   3   expenses.  The expenses, each one is the one.

   4   Q   But you as part of Black Giant were not paying Wadih El

   5   Hage's expenses, correct?

   6   A   I said Black Giant was not established a company yet.

   7   Q   On JJJ, there was a listing for expenses to Zambia at the

   8   end of February 1997, correct?  Maybe if we could display it

   9   on the Elmo on the screen.

  10   A   Where is expense to Zambia?

  11   Q   If you look at the top as you explained to me earlier,

  12   under February 25 and 27, there is a listing for a trip to

  13   Macakos, and two items down a trip to Zambia, and those were

  14   paid out to Wadih El Hage in February 1997, correct?

  15   A   Yes.  This is including the buying stones.

  16   Q   And the only other expense listed in February is at the

  17   bottom of the page, which is 500 Kenyan shillings or about

  18   $10, correct?

  19   A   This is for visa.

  20   Q   There is no listing on this document for El Hage's trip to

  21   Pakistan, correct, for February 1997, correct?

  22   A   Do you find any trip to me to Hong Kong?

  23   Q   I am just asking you, sir.

  24   A   No, sir.

  25   Q   For Mr. El Hage, is there a listing for a trip to


   1   Pakistan?

   2   A   No.  If you see no listing to Black Giant, you have to ask

   3   the same question.  I have no trips to Hong Kong for the same

   4   period, 10 trips.

   5   Q   Is there a listing for Mr. El Hage's expenses for a trip

   6   to Pakistan on JJJ?  Yes or no.  (Interpreted)

   7   A   Why we have to pay for him if he have to go back his own

   8   way?

   9            THE COURT:  Sir --

  10   A   No.

  11            THE COURT:  The answer is no.

  12   Q   Let me display on the screen the first page of

  13   Government's Exhibit 310, 74TR, just page 1.  If we could

  14   focus on the paragraph with the asterisk under 1 that says Abu

  15   Sabbur brings to light the new policy.  It indicates when Abu

  16   Sabbur arrived on 22/2/1997, he contacted Khalid directly and

  17   asked him to come to Nairobi.  When he identified and met with

  18   Abu Sabbur, he informed him about the status of the young men

  19   and the Hage and that they were fine, and he received from him

  20   the trusts, the letters, the money, and he informed him also

  21   that the Hage has a new policy pertaining to the region,

  22   hence, Khalid fully grasped this policy and took the issue

  23   seriously.  The new policy is to revive the activism in

  24   Somalia if the expression is correct and prepare 300 activists

  25   before the arrival of the guests, and informed him that the


   1   details of the policy are with the guest coming from the Hage

   2   end.

   3            This is part of a document taken from the computer of

   4   Mr. El Hage.

   5            Do you know who in this document Abdul Sabbur is?

   6   Yes or no.

   7   A   No.

   8   Q   Do you know who in this document Khalid is?  Yes or no.

   9   A   No.

  10   Q   Do you know who in this document El Hage is, meaning the

  11   Hage is?  Yes or no.

  12   A   Also I don't know if only I told you if Wadih El Hage or

  13   another Hage.  I don't know.

  14   Q   Do you know, yes or no, whether the El Hage referred to

  15   there is Usama Bin Laden?

  16   A   Sorry, no.

  17   Q   Can we agree on one thing:  Whatever this report is about,

  18   it has nothing to do with Black Giant business; is that

  19   correct?

  20   A   Yes, nothing completely.

  21   Q   Completely different.

  22   A   Yes.

  23   Q   Now, sir, I would like to move ahead from February of 1997

  24   to July of 1997, and if you recall, yesterday you testified

  25   about an exhibit WEHX-W13-T, and that was a phone call -- I am


   1   sorry -- WEHX-27-E, which was a phone call on June 27, 1997,

   2   between a Farouq and a Wadih.  I can hand up a copy but if you

   3   recall, it discussed how there was planning for a convention

   4   to be held at the Kenyan International Convention Center in

   5   August of 1997.  Do you recall that testimony?

   6   A   Can you repeat?  No.

   7   Q   Yesterday -- if I could have the original of WEHX-W27 in

   8   place on the Elmo.  It is a two-page document.  If you look at

   9   the top of the page, I believe you testified about this

  10   yesterday.  It says June 27 as the date.  The time is 7:30,

  11   and the participants are Farouq and Wadih.  Knowing that, we

  12   can skip to the second page.  Do you recall this phone call

  13   about a convention that was to take place in a convention

  14   center in downtown Nairobi?  Yes or no.

  15   A   Yes.

  16   Q   Is this the phone call about the conversation about the

  17   convention that was to take place with the Jordanian

  18   delegation in Nairobi in the Kenyan Convention Center?

  19   (Interpreted)

  20   A   Exhibition.  We are talking about Mr. Farouq, Kenyan

  21   consulate in Jordan.

  22   Q   He is talking on page 2 about a convention that is to take

  23   place in Nairobi on August 8, 1997, correct?

  24   A   Yes, it was taken on 1997.

  25   Q   Did the convention actually go forward on that day, August


   1   whatever 1997 in Nairobi?

   2   A   I am sure it taking place at that time in Nairobi but I

   3   was outside of the country myself.

   4   Q   Do you know whether or not Wadih Hage attended that

   5   convention?  Yes or no.

   6   A   I told you I am outside of the country.

   7   Q   But he never told you he attended the convention?

   8   A   No.

   9   Q   Did he ever tell you that he missed the convention?

  10   A   I said I told you I did not know anything about it.

  11   Q   Do you know if Wadih El Hage was in Afghanistan or

  12   Pakistan in August of 1997?

  13   A   I told you I left to Hong Kong and he left to Pakistan.  I

  14   don't know where he was and where, what he is doing.  I don't

  15   know.

  16   Q   Did Wadih El Hage ever tell you that during the trips to

  17   Pakistan that he went to a place other than Karachi, which you

  18   mentioned earlier today?  Did he ever tell you that he went to

  19   another city in Pakistan?

  20   A   No.  If he tell me another city I did not know myself, but

  21   he did not tell me, or Karachi.

  22   Q   Do you recall did he ever tell you that he went to the

  23   border town of Peshawar, P-E-S-H-A-W-E-R, in Pakistan?

  24   A   No.

  25   Q   Sir, you talked the other day about how when you first met


   1   Mr. El Hage it was in May or June of 1996, correct?

   2   A   That's correct.

   3   Q   And he did you a favor by taking your daughter to the

   4   hospital, correct?

   5   A   Yes.

   6   Q   And you were in effect neighbors because you lived in

   7   roughly the same area, correct?

   8   A   I shift to that area in January 1996, yes.

   9   Q   After that point in time your families became friendly,

  10   correct?

  11   A   Yes.  This is natural between kids can be friendly, yes.

  12   Q   So the kids were friendly, the wives were friendly?

  13   A   Yes, they go and come back, they bring with each other,

  14   yes.

  15   Q   And you and Mr. El Hage are friendly, correct?

  16   A   Yes, we are colleagues in business.

  17   Q   During that time, did Mr. El Hage -- strike that.

  18            What I would like to do is display on the screen

  19   Government's Exhibit 218A-T.  I want to play a call that is

  20   marked Government's Exhibit 218A, and I will tell you the

  21   question, the area of questioning that I am going to ask in

  22   advance.  What I would like you to focus on is whether or not

  23   during your family relationships with Mr. El Hage, if he ever

  24   told you about a person named Dr. Atef, A-T-E-F, and a clinic.

  25   We can start, if we want, at the bottom of page 2, and the


   1   marker in the transcript, I think the time is 2:40.  I want

   2   you to focus, sir, on whether or not you know this person

   3   Dr. Atef, whether he is a doctor, where his clinic is, and if

   4   you know his telephone number.

   5            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection to the form of the question,

   6   your Honor.

   7            THE COURT:  Overruled.

   8   Q   We will put on the screen and we will start playing --

   9   A   You ask about doctor or what --

  10   Q   First of all, do you know a person named Dr. Atef?

  11   A   I do not know.  My doctor is Dr. Farouq, yes.

  12   Q   I want you to listen to this conversation the way you

  13   listened to other conversations before and see if you can help

  14   us figure out who Dr. Atef is.

  15            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection, your Honor.

  16   A   You see my friend, if I couldn't recognize a voice, you

  17   have to recognize all the people who talk with Wadih, how can.

  18   It's OK, I can listen also.

  19   Q   Just listen and see if you know this person Dr. Atef.

  20            (Tape played)

  21   Q   Mr. Odeh, do you know the Dr. Atef they are talking about

  22   during that phone call?  Yes or no.

  23   A   No.

  24   Q   When Mr. El Hage made a comment to the other person Harun,

  25   try to combine these numbers, do you know what he meant?  Yes


   1   or no.  (Interpreted)

   2   A   I don't know, but because this number, if you put it

   3   together, it is six number, you repeat the number of the

   4   phone.  But what he mean, I don't know.

   5   Q   Did Mr. El Hage ever talk to you and give you any

   6   telephone numbers in code at any time?

   7            MR. SCHMIDT:  Objection.

   8            THE COURT:  Overruled.

   9            (Question interpreted)

  10   A   No, not --

  11            THE COURT:  No.

  12   Q   Yes or no, sir.

  13   A   No.

  14   Q   Sir, let me show you a picture, Government's Exhibit 4-3.

  15   Do you know the person depicted in that picture with the name

  16   underneath Abu Hafs?  Have you ever seen that person?

  17   A   I did not see this picture in my life.

  18   Q   Is that someone that you in your course of dealings with

  19   Wadih El Hage or Black Giant have ever discussed with Wadih El

  20   Hage?  Yes or no.

  21            (Interpreted)

  22   A   No, no, no, no, completely no.

  23   Q   Do you know if that is the person referred to in that

  24   conversation as Dr. Atef?  Yes or no.  (Interpreted)

  25   A   No.


   1   Q   You were shown some business cards yesterday.  I would

   2   like to show you one last exhibit, Government's Exhibit 304,

   3   pop-up telephone book.  I would ask Mr. Francisco to display

   4   that on the Elmo.  There is a dial on the phone book for

   5   letters, if we could fix the dial at the letter H, press H.

   6   If we could open the phone book.  This is an exhibit recovered

   7   in the search of Mr. El Hage's home.  If you could open the

   8   phone book at the letter H.  If you could focus on the fifth

   9   entry down, Hafusa, H-A-F-U-S-A, and if we could read the

  10   entry, 873682/505331.

  11            Mr. Odeh, do you recall those numbers being spoken

  12   about on the telephone call you just listened to regarding

  13   Dr. Atef and his clinic?  (Interpreted)

  14   A   Yes, I read these two numbers here from the previous tape.

  15   87368/505331, yes, but he give it differently.  He give 505

  16   and he repeat, correct.  This is the two numbers that I have

  17   here.

  18   Q   Do you know the person Hafusa in Mr. El Hage's phone book?

  19   Yes or no.  (Interpreted)

  20   A   No, sir, I don't know.

  21   Q   Can we agree that the person Hafusa, the person Dr. Atef,

  22   the person Mustafa, the person Khalef and the person Abu

  23   Sabbur are all people that you did not come to know in the

  24   course of your dealings with Mr. El Hage and Black Giant?

  25   A   No, I did not any of them.


   1            MR. FITZGERALD:  Thank you.

   2            THE COURT:  Redirect?  How long will it be?  It is a

   3   question of when to take break.

   4            MR. SCHMIDT:  In minutes.

   5            THE COURT:  Redirect.


   7   BY MR. SCHMIDT:

   8   Q   Approximately how many times did you travel to the Far

   9   East from the time that you started dealing in business with

  10   Mr. El Hage to the time that he left Nairobi?

  11   A   You mean that how many times I left to Far East after he

  12   left Nairobi?

  13   Q   No, before.  After you started working with Mr. El Hage on

  14   some of the stone deals until he left, so from the summer of

  15   1996 to September of 1997, about how many times did you take

  16   trips to the Far East?

  17   A   About three times, and I stay nearly about six months

  18   outside of the country during this period.

  19   Q   During that period of time -- withdrawn.

  20            Did you receive money back from Black Giant for

  21   expenses from Mr. El Hage on those trips?

  22   A   No, no.  Sorry, the things -- sorry, to understand.  Black

  23   Giant still an idea in memorandum, it is a paper.  It is not a

  24   company, because the company have other procedures.  She have

  25   to go to commerce to take a lesson.  She have to go to mining


   1   for a lesson.  It is a long procedure.  The mining is only a

   2   certificate of incorporation.  Not existence of money.  The

   3   expenses come here to show what we will be, it is not the

   4   expenses of the company, for who pay more than the other, you

   5   understand.  We buy stone.

   6   Q   When you are dealing together with Mr. El Hage, whether it

   7   is chrysoprase or tourmaline or tanzanite, you just want to

   8   keep an account of how much money you spent and how much money

   9   he spent; is that right?

  10   A   Sorry, I have to also clarify two things if you give me

  11   time.  There are two different deal.  There one deal we go

  12   together jointly.  There one deal that he can go separately,

  13   one deal that I can.  The deal we go jointly, this I recall.

  14   Q   When you were traveling, was there anyone watching over

  15   your wife and children?

  16   A   Yes, sometimes I ask the neighbor or Mr. Wadih to look for

  17   them because they neighbor, you know.  But also some people my

  18   neighbor.  Dr. Miso, Mr. Wadih come to visit.  But because he

  19   very closely, all the communication come through him, to me,

  20   my wife, everything.

  21            (Continued on next page)






   1            MR. SCHMIDT:  Thank you very much.

   2            THE COURT:  Anything further of this witness?

   3            MR. FITZGERALD:  No, thank you.

   4            THE COURT:  Thank you.  We will take our mid-morning

   5   recess.

   6            THE WITNESS:  Mr. Fitzgerald, can I have a small talk

   7   with you, please.

   8            THE COURT:  No, no, no.

   9            (Jury excused)

  10            THE COURT:  Mr. Schmidt, what is the next order of

  11   business?

  12            MR. DRATEL:  We will be calling Ashif Juma.

  13            THE COURT:  The Juma witnesses.  OK, we will take a

  14   recess.

  15            Mr. Schmidt, the witness has asked to talk to Mr.

  16   Fitzgerald and I said I thought that was not a good idea.

  17            MR. SCHMIDT:  Excuse me.

  18            THE COURT:  I said I thought he should not.  I am

  19   telling you the colloquy that took place here where the

  20   witness said may I talk to you, to Mr. Fitzgerald, and I said

  21   no, that he should not.

  22            MR. SCHMIDT:  Thank you.

  23            (Witness excused)

  24            (Recess)

  25            THE COURT:  For the benefit of counsel for Odeh and


   1   to avoid a break, people come long distances, so that it is

   2   unfortunate when we have an unexpected break.  What is the

   3   shortest period of time you think your case might take?  I ask

   4   that so we can advise counsel for Odeh at what time they have

   5   to be ready to go forward.

   6            MR. SCHMIDT:  Other than the difficulties we may have

   7   relating to the Somalia issue, which I don't know when

   8   possible military people may be available, the shortest

   9   probably would be next Wednesday it would be finished.  It

  10   would be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday.

  11            THE COURT:  So that counsel for Odeh should have a

  12   witness available for Thursday.

  13            MR. RICCO:  You mean tomorrow, Judge?

  14            THE COURT:  Thursday a week.

  15            MR. RICCO:  Our case will be ready to go as of

  16   Tuesday morning.  Everything will be in place.

  17            THE COURT:  With witnesses present --

  18            MR. RICCO:  We will have witnesses ready to go.

  19            MR. SCHMIDT:  If I may, because also we are bringing

  20   people in out of the country and scheduling is sometimes

  21   difficult, if it comes a point where our witnesses will be

  22   easier or just as convenient for our witnesses to come a day

  23   later, say Wednesday or Thursday, do you wish me to speak to

  24   counsel to see if we can --

  25            THE COURT:  Absolutely.  Let's bring in the jury.


   1            MR. SCHMIDT:  We are waiting for Mr. Dratel, who I

   2   think is probably with the witness.

   3            THE COURT:  And where would that be?

   4            (Pause)

   5            (Jury present)

   6            THE COURT:  Mr. Dratel, the defendant El Hage may

   7   call its next witness.

   8            MR. DRATEL:  Thank you, your Honor.  We call Ashif

   9   Juma.

  10    ASHIF MOHAMED JUMA, recalled.

  11            THE COURT:  Mr. Juma, the court reminds you you are

  12   still under oath.  Do you understand that?

  13            THE WITNESS:  Yes.

  14            (Continued on next page)














   2   BY MR. DRATEL:

   3   Q   Good afternoon, Mr. Juma.

   4   A   Good afternoon.

   5   Q   When you testified earlier, you testified that you were in

   6   a ferryboat accident in May of 1996?

   7   A   Yes, sir.

   8   Q   In Lake Victoria?

   9   A   Yes, sir.

  10   Q   And you survived the accident but Adel Habib died in that

  11   accident, is that right?

  12   A   Yes, sir.

  13   Q   If we could have Government's Exhibit 607 and display it

  14   on the Elmo.  It is in evidence.  It is Government's Exhibit

  15   607.  If I may approach, your Honor.

  16            THE COURT:  Yes.

  17   Q   Mr. Juma, if you could look at Government's Exhibit 607.

  18   Is that a Swahili newspaper?

  19   A   Yes, sir.

  20   Q   It is a Tanzania newspaper?

  21   A   Yes.

  22   Q   Do you see the handwriting in blue?  You have the original

  23   there, correct?  You have the original newspaper?

  24   A   Yes, sir.

  25   Q   Is there handwriting in blue on it?


   1   A   Yes.

   2   Q   Do you recognize that handwriting?

   3   A   No.

   4   Q   That is not your handwriting?

   5   A   No, sir.

   6   Q   Do you have a brother Sikander?

   7   A   Yes, sir.

   8   Q   Do you know whether that is his handwriting?

   9   A   No, it's not his.

  10   Q   Do you know who Papo is?

  11   A   Papo is myself, me, my nickname.

  12   Q   The arrows point to where in the cabin, the location of

  13   the cabin for you and Adel Habib on the ferry?

  14   A   Yes, sir.

  15   Q   You provided that information?

  16   A   Yes, sir.

  17   Q   Do you know who wrote these markings on this?

  18   A   No, sir.  I never seen this before.

  19            MR. DRATEL:  No further questions, your Honor.

  20            MR. FITZGERALD:  Briefly, your Honor.

  21            THE COURT:  Yes.



  24   Q   Let me approach you with Government's Exhibit 359, which

  25   we can display on the screen, GX359.  First of all, do you


   1   speak or read Arabic?

   2   A   No, sir.

   3   Q   Looking at Government's Exhibit 359, is that something you

   4   wrote?

   5   A   No, I have never seen this paper before.

   6   Q   Let me approach you with a translation for Government's

   7   Exhibit 359, marked as Government's Exhibit 359T.  If we could

   8   display on the screen Government's Exhibit 359T, page 1.  If

   9   you could read that to yourself, Mr. Juma, and I will just

  10   read out loud the title, "Details of the accident in which

  11   Jalal died."  It has been read before.  If you can look at it

  12   for yourself and see if that is a description of the events

  13   that happened when you were in the ship that capsized and Adel

  14   Habib drowned and you saved yourself.

  15            (Pause)

  16   Q   If you would now display the bottom half of the page.

  17   When you get to page 2, raise your hand and let us know.

  18            If you would read page 2 now, if we could display

  19   page 2 on the screen.

  20            (Pause)

  21   Q   If we could play the bottom half of page 2 on the screen

  22   and if I could ask Mr. Juma to keep reading and when he is

  23   done with page 2, if he could indicate.

  24            (Pause)

  25   Q   If we can now display page 3 on the screen.


   1            (Pause)

   2   Q   Sir, are you finished reading that?

   3   A   Yes.

   4   Q   Have you ever seen that before, that document?

   5   A   No, sir.

   6   Q   Does that describe what happened to you back in May of

   7   1996?

   8   A   Yes.

   9   Q   Do you know who wrote that document?

  10   A   No.

  11   Q   Do you have any idea how that could end up in the house of

  12   Ali Mohamed in Sacramento, California?

  13            MR. DRATEL:  Objection, your Honor.

  14            THE COURT:  Sustained.

  15   Q   If we could go back to page 2, just below hours before the

  16   accident, if we could focus on the two lines below that, it

  17   says Asif, who was with him, told us that they had awakened at

  18   5:30, so that they could go to prayer, and then they left the

  19   first class compartment.  Do you know who the "us" is in "told

  20   us"?

  21            MR. DRATEL:  Objection, your Honor.

  22            THE COURT:  Does he know.  That is yes or no.

  23   A   I don't know who that is.

  24   Q   In the period after the accident, did anyone come from

  25   outside Tanzania to talk to you about what happened?


   1   A   Sorry.

   2   Q   After the accident in which Adel Habib, or Jalal, drowned,

   3   did anyone travel to Mwanza from outside the country to talk?

   4   A   Yes, sir.  First person came there who knew Jalal was

   5   Fazul Mohamed.  He came first there.

   6   Q   If we could display Government's Exhibit 110.

   7   A   Yes.

   8   Q   That is the first person to come?

   9   A   Yes.

  10   Q   Did anyone come after that?

  11   A   Yes, it was Mr. Wadih.

  12   Q   Did either Mr. Fazul or Wadih indicate in any way that

  13   they intended to write a report about what you told them?

  14   A   No, sir.

  15            MR. FITZGERALD:  Thank you.  I have nothing further.

  16            THE COURT:  Anything further of this witness?

  17            MR. DRATEL:  Yes, your Honor, just briefly.


  19   BY MR. DRATEL:

  20   Q   Mr. Juma, the first person who came to Mwanza after the

  21   ferryboat accident was Harun, correct?

  22   A   Fazul.

  23   Q   Fazul?

  24   A   Fazul.

  25   Q   He went with you to the port to look for the body, right?


   1   A   Yes, sir.

   2   Q   There were several days of investigation that he did with

   3   you, correct?

   4   A   Yes, sir.

   5   Q   Mr. El Hage did not come until later on, correct?

   6   A   Yes, sir.

   7   Q   By that time it was already clear that Mr. Adel Habib's

   8   body would not be recovered; is that right?

   9   A   Yes.  Actually, we were trying to get the body but we

  10   could not.

  11            MR. DRATEL:  Nothing further, your Honor.

  12            THE COURT:  Thank you --

  13            MR. FITZGERALD:  Briefly.

  14            THE COURT:  Yes.



  17   Q   I will mispronounce it, but is there a fish in Tanzania

  18   called talapia, T-A-L-A-P-I-A?

  19   A   Yes, we have talapia fish.

  20   Q   Is there a hotel in Mwanza with the name of the Talapia

  21   Hotel?

  22            MR. DRATEL:  Your Honor, it is beyond the scope.

  23            THE COURT:  Overruled.

  24   Q   Is there a hotel in Mwanza called the Talapia Hotel?

  25   A   Yes, there is.


   1   Q   Did you ever have a conversation with Wadih El Hage at the

   2   Talapia Hotel after the accident in which Jalal drowned?

   3   A   Yes.

   4   Q   What did you talk about?

   5            MR. DRATEL:  Objection, your Honor.

   6            THE COURT:  Overruled.

   7   A   Actually, I can't remember exactly.

   8            MR. DRATEL:  Objection to the conversation itself.

   9   It's an 801 objection.

  10            THE COURT:  Overruled.

  11   Q   Do you recall the topic you discussed with Wadih El Hage

  12   at the Talapia Hotel after the accident?

  13   A   Only a few words.

  14   Q   Is there anything about that conversation that sticks out

  15   in your mind?

  16   A   Yes, sir.  It was like Mr. Wadih tried to find out --

  17            MR. DRATEL:  Objection, your Honor.

  18            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, may he continue the

  19   answer?

  20            MR. DRATEL:  Operation of his mind, what his opinion

  21   was.

  22            THE COURT:  Restate your question.

  23   Q   What if anything do you recall sticking out in your mind

  24   that was said in the conversation between you and Wadih El

  25   Hage at the Talapia Hotel following the accident?


   1   A   It was like he wanted to know --

   2            MR. DRATEL:  Objection.

   3            THE COURT:  Overruled.  He may continue.

   4   A   He wanted to know that what we know about Mr. Jalal.

   5            MR. FITZGERALD:  Thank you.  Nothing further.

   6            THE COURT:  Anything further of this witness?

   7            MR. DRATEL:  No, your Honor.

   8            THE COURT:  Thank you.  You may step down.

   9            (Witness excused)

  10            MR. DRATEL:  Your Honor, we call Sikander Juma.

  11            Sikander Juma

  12            MR. FITZGERALD:  He has not testified before, Judge,

  13   so he does need to be sworn.  I believe we may need a stand-by

  14   interpreter to stand by.

  15            THE COURT:  May we have a Swahili interpreter by the

  16   witness.


  18        called as a witness by the defense,

  19        having been duly sworn, testified as follows:


  21   BY MR. DRATEL:

  22   Q   Good afternoon.

  23   A   Good afternoon.

  24   Q   Are you also known as Sikander?

  25   A   Yes.


   1   Q   Sikander Juma?

   2   A   Yes.

   3   Q   Are you the brother of Ashif Juma?

   4   A   Yes.

   5   Q   Where do you live?  Where have you lived until this year?

   6   A   In Kenya.

   7   Q   And in Tanzania?

   8   A   Yes.

   9   Q   During the period 1996 and 1997, did you know Wadih El

  10   Hage in Kenya and Tanzania?

  11   A   Yes.

  12   Q   Did you also know someone named Fazul?

  13   A   Yes.

  14   Q   Did you also know him as Harun or just as Fazul?

  15   A   I heard his name as Harun too.

  16   Q   You knew them through your brother-in-law Adel Habib?

  17   A   Yes.

  18   Q   Adel Abu Hebrew was married to your sister Tahira?

  19   A   Yes.

  20   Q   Adel Habib used to travel on occasion?

  21   A   Yes.

  22   Q   You met Mr. El Hage and Harun while Mr. Adel Habib was

  23   away, correct?

  24   A   Yes.

  25   Q   That was because he would send back money to your sister


   1   Tahira through them?

   2   A   Yes.

   3   Q   And you would pick up the money from Mr. El Hage or Harun?

   4   A   Yes.

   5   Q   With respect to Mr. Adel Habib, he was a religious Muslim,

   6   correct?

   7   A   Adel Habib?

   8   Q   Yes.

   9   A   Yes.

  10   Q   But he still went to the movies occasionally?

  11   A   Yes.

  12   Q   And you considered him open-minded?

  13   A   Yes.

  14   Q   How did he encourage you to be more religious?  Was there

  15   any way in which he encouraged you to be more religious?

  16   A   Yes, to pray usually, like Muslim way.

  17   Q   Did he ever mention the organization Help Africa People to

  18   you?

  19   A   Not him, but I have heard from Fazul.

  20   Q   Did you ever hear, though, Mr. Adel Habib mention Help

  21   Africa People to you?

  22   A   Not sure.  I don't remember.

  23            MR. DRATEL:  If I may approach, your Honor.

  24            THE COURT:  Yes.

  25   Q   I show you a document marked 3529-12 and just show you


   1   pages 2 and 3 -- I am sorry, page 3.  Withdrawn, your Honor.

   2            When you were still in Tanzania or in Kenya,

   3   actually, Nairobi, did you meet with Kenyan police after the

   4   embassy bombings?

   5   A   Yes.

   6   Q   You were interviewed by them?

   7   A   Where did I --

   8   Q   You were interviewed by Kenyan police?  (Interpreted)

   9   A   Yes, they did.

  10   Q   And by FBI as well?

  11   A   Yes.

  12   Q   Would January 1999 sound like one of the dates that you

  13   may have been interviewed?

  14   A   Yes, sir.

  15   Q   If I could just show you 3529-12 and ask you to read just

  16   the first paragraph to yourself and then the highlighted

  17   portion on page 3, and just let us know when you are finished.

  18   Just the first paragraph here and the highlighted part on page

  19   3.  Thank you.

  20   A   You can just read for me.

  21            (Interpreter complies)

  22   Q   Does that refresh your recollection as to whether Adel

  23   Habib ever mentioned help Africa to you?

  24   A   Yes.

  25   Q   So he did.  By the way, you also knew him as Jalal?


   1   A   Mr. Jalal?

   2   Q   Yes, Adel Habib?

   3   A   Yes.

   4   Q   Do you know what Jalal means?

   5   A   No.

   6   Q   Is it a Swahili word?

   7   A   No, it's in Arabic.

   8   Q   Did Mr. El Hage -- how do you remember Mr. El Hage

   9   referring to Adel Habib?  As Adel Habib?  Or how do you

  10   recall?

  11   A   I don't remember.

  12   Q   You don't remember?

  13   A   I don't remember.

  14   Q   Does 3529-12 also refresh your recollection that Mr. Adel

  15   Habib told you that Help Africa People was helpful to Muslim

  16   people by giving them food and medicine?

  17   A   Yes.

  18   Q   And that he also said that he wanted to open a Help Africa

  19   People branch in Kenya?

  20   A   Yes.

  21   Q   You knew Mr. Adel Habib for a period of time before you

  22   met Mr. El Hage; is that correct?

  23   A   I beg your pardon.

  24   Q   Do you recall when you met Mr. Adel Habib?

  25   A   When I met Mr. Adel Habib?


   1   Q   Yes.

   2   A   Yes.

   3   Q   Do you know when?

   4   A   I don't remember.

   5   Q   Do you remember when he married your sister?

   6   A   No.

   7   Q   It was a period of time, though, before you met Mr. El

   8   Hage, correct?

   9   A   Yes, before I met Mr. El Hage.

  10   Q   Did you meet Mr. Adel Habib before he married your sister?

  11   A   Once, yes.

  12   Q   So there was a period of time that you knew him before he

  13   married your sister and then there was a period of time that

  14   you knew him after, before you met Mr. El Hage; is that right?

  15   A   Yes.

  16   Q   When Mr. Adel Habib would travel and would have either

  17   Mr. El Hage or Harun give you money, Adel Habib told you not

  18   to speak to him, correct?

  19   A   Yes.

  20   Q   But in fact the first time you met Mr. El Hage you had

  21   about a 15-minute conversation with him.

  22   A   Yes.

  23   Q   He even gave you a phone number how to reach him in

  24   Nairobi, right?

  25   A   Yes.


   1   Q   Also, when he gave you the money he advised you to count

   2   it; is that correct?

   3   A   Yes.

   4   Q   He said that was cautious, the safe thing to do was to

   5   count the money to make sure it was accurate.

   6   A   Yes.

   7   Q   After Adel Habib died -- withdrawn.

   8            Mr. Adel Habib died in a ferryboat accidents, is that

   9   correct?

  10   A   Yes.

  11   Q   He had loaned money to your brother Ashif for a matatu

  12   business that he had; is that right?

  13   A   Yes.

  14   Q   That is like a bus, a private bus company?

  15   A   Yes.

  16   Q   After Adel Habib died, your sister Tahira, Adel Habib's

  17   widow, wanted to get that money back from your brother Ashif,

  18   right?

  19   A   Yes.

  20   Q   And your brother Ashif did not want to pay it back, right?

  21   A   Yes.

  22   Q   So your sister asked Mr. El Hage to ask Ashif for the

  23   money back for the person who loaned the money to Adel Habib

  24   in the first place, right?

  25   A   Yes.


   1            MR. SCHMIDT:  I didn't hear a physical answer.

   2            (Record read)

   3   Q   Before then, Adel Habib had said that the money had been

   4   provided by somebody else, correct?

   5   A   Yes.

   6   Q   Benay Karama?

   7   A   Yes.

   8   Q   The reason that your sister Tahira wanted the money from

   9   Ashif, she told Mr. El Hage because she needed it, correct?

  10   A   Yes.

  11   Q   The plan with your sister Tahira and Mr. El Hage was to

  12   have your brother Ashif pay back Mr. Karama and then have

  13   Mr. Karama pay the money to Tahira, correct?

  14   A   That's right.

  15   Q   In fact, your brother Ashif never paid back any of the

  16   money.

  17   A   No.

  18   Q   Through all of this contact, you developed a friendship

  19   with Mr. El Hage, correct?

  20   A   Yes.

  21   Q   In fact, he visited you in Mwanza?

  22   A   Yes.

  23   Q   And your family, your sisters as well?

  24   A   Yes.

  25   Q   He came with his wife as well?


   1   A   At home in Nairobi.

   2   Q   And you also met his mother-in-law as well.

   3   A   Yes.

   4   Q   And also he invited your sister over as well, Mr. El Hage,

   5   right, Tahira?

   6   A   Pardon.

   7   Q   Mr. El Hage also invited your sister Tahira as well.

   8   A   Yes.

   9   Q   Would you say it would be a good estimate to say that

  10   during that time period you would see Mr. El Hage about once a

  11   month?

  12   A   Yes.

  13   Q   Earlier this morning you heard some tape recordings, you

  14   listened to some tape recordings?  (Interpreted)

  15   A   Yes.

  16   Q   You identified your voice and Mr. El Hage's voice on two

  17   of those tapes?

  18   A   One tape, if I remember.

  19   Q   And your sister's voice on another tape?

  20   A   Yes.

  21   Q   How many tapes did you listen to this morning?

  22   A   Two --

  23   Q   Or three?

  24   A   Or three.  One, it was in Arabic.  Another one I was

  25   talking to Wadih and the second one my sister, she was talking


   1   to one of the lady.

   2   Q   Was there a third tape with you and Wadih as well?

   3   A   I don't remember.

   4            MR. DRATEL:  If I may approach, your Honor.

   5   Q   I am just going to show you what are marked important

   6   identification as WIHXW38, W37 and W36.  I just ask you if you

   7   recall these from this morning?

   8   A   Yes.

   9   Q   So it may have been three?

  10   A   Yes, these.

  11   Q   And you were on two of them and your sister is on one of

  12   them?

  13   A   Yes.

  14            MR. DRATEL:  I would move them in evidence, your

  15   Honor.

  16            MR. FITZGERALD:  No objection.

  17            THE COURT:  W36, 37 and 38 received.

  18            (Defense Exhibits WEHXW37, WEHXW38 and WEHXW39

  19   received in evidence)

  20            MR. DRATEL:  We would like to read 36, your Honor.

  21   We are going to read a tape, Mr. Juma, so you can just listen

  22   and watch on the screen the transcript.  NB1-003-1.  We are

  23   just going to read it.  It is in English but we will

  24   dispense -- I will read the part of Wadih El Hage, Mr. Schmidt

  25   will read Sikander's part.  This is October 28, 1996.


   1            (Exhibit read)

   2   Q   I just want to ask you a question, Mr. Sikander.  The

   3   Fazul that you were referring to is the same person?

   4   A   Yes.

   5            (Reading continued)

   6   Q   Mr. Juma, do you know the person to whom he was referring

   7   when he said the brother who wants to see the piece of land?

   8   A   I don't remember.

   9   Q   Do you recall?  You don't remember?  Do you know what the

  10   piece of land was?

  11   A   Mwanza?

  12   Q   Yes.

  13   A   It was plot for Jalal, Mr. Jalal.

  14            MR. DRATEL:  We will continue.

  15            (Reading continued)

  16            THE COURT:  What you are reading is not on the

  17   screen.

  18            MR. FITZGERALD:  If we want to use the Elmo, we can

  19   borrow my copy.

  20            (Reading continued)

  21   Q   Mr. Juma, when you said you had a problem with money, were

  22   you hoping to get some money out of the deal if in fact there

  23   was a deal for that piece of land?

  24   A   I don't remember, sir.

  25   Q   Were you hoping to do some business with Mr. El Hage?


   1   A   No.

   2            (Reading continued)

   3   Q   This was after Adel Habib had already died, correct?

   4   A   Yes.

   5   Q   He died in May of 1996.

   6   A   Yes.

   7   Q   Does they ever purchase the land in Mwanza, to your

   8   knowledge?

   9   A   Who?

  10   Q   Mr. El Hage.

  11   A   He purchase?

  12   Q   Yes.

  13   A   No.

  14   Q   Now I would like to read WEHX-W37, which is another

  15   English conversation, but we will read it.  I will again read

  16   Wadih, Mr. Schmidt will read Sikander.  This is February 21,

  17   1997.

  18            (Exhibit read)

  19            THE COURT:  We will break till 2:15.

  20            (Luncheon recess)







   1                 A F T E R N O O N    S E S S I O N

   2                             2:15 p.m.

   3            (In open court; jury not present)

   4            MR. SCHMIDT:  Judge, before the jury comes out, I'd

   5   like to speak to your Honor ex-parte in camera concerning the

   6   witness that we expected to follow Mr. Juma.

   7            MR. COHN:  If that's the Islamic expert, I believe we

   8   have an interest in hearing.

   9            THE COURT:  What?

  10            MR. COHN:  If that's the Islamic expert, given the

  11   representation that Mr. El Hage's team has made about the fact

  12   that they want to inquire about my client's statement, I

  13   believe we have a right to be present.

  14            MR. SCHMIDT:  That's not the issue.  I have no

  15   problem with defense counsel hearing it.  I do not want it to

  16   be --

  17            MR. FITZGERALD:  No objection.

  18            THE COURT:  I'll see the reporter and defense counsel

  19   in the robing room.

  20            MR. COHN:  Whose counsel?

  21            THE COURT:  All of them.

  22            (Continued on next page)





   1            (Pages 4299 through 4303 sealed)

   2            (In open court; jury not present)

   3            THE COURT:  I plan to tell the jury that after

   4   conferring with counsel we conclude that it will expedite

   5   matters if we do not sit tomorrow.  Is that acceptable to

   6   everyone?

   7            MR. COHN:  Yes, your Honor.

   8            THE COURT:  Let's bring in the jury and the witness

   9   may resume the stand.

  10            (Continued on next page)

















   1            (Jury present; witness resumed)

   2            THE COURT:  Good afternoon.  Mr. Dratel, you may

   3   continue.

   4            MR. DRATEL:  Thank you, your Honor.

   5   Q   Good afternoon, again, Mr. Juma.

   6            Before lunch we had read the transcript of

   7   conversation WEHX-W37 which was a February 21st conversation

   8   between you and Mr. El Hage, and if I can just review, will

   9   you put page 5 on the Elmo, please, of the transcript of

  10   WEHX-37, W37, NB1-050-2.

  11            There is a spot, actually if you can move the cursor

  12   down.  Is it possible to move the cursor down?  It says:  They

  13   have eaten money.  If you can just stop it there.

  14            You see where the cursor is blinking on left?

  15            THE COURT:  I think the witness doesn't read English.

  16            MR. DRATEL:  I'm sorry.

  17            If it can be translated that line where it says:

  18   They have eaten money, they have eaten money from that indian.

  19            (Through the interpreter)

  20            You were referring to the car accident that you had

  21   had with the Indian person, correct?

  22   A   Yes.

  23   Q   And when you say, they have eaten money, you're referring

  24   to the police who are on the scene?

  25   A   Yes.


   1   Q   And what does the phrase in Swahili, the phrase, eaten

   2   money, what does that mean?

   3   A   It's a bribe.

   4   Q   So that meant that the Indian, the other driver who you

   5   had the accident with, had already bribed the police officer?

   6   A   Yes.

   7   Q   Now, that car that you were driving, did you by that from

   8   Mr. El Hage?

   9   A   No, it was Jalal's car.

  10   Q   But Mr. El Hage had given you the car or given you the

  11   registration?

  12   A   I don't remember.

  13   Q   Now, to move on to WEHX--W38, and --

  14            MR. DRATEL:  May I approach, your Honor?

  15            THE COURT:  Yes.

  16   Q   I show you the transcript of that conversation.  Did you

  17   write that, Tahera Adell Habib?

  18   A   Yes.

  19   Q   That was one of the persons in the conversation, correct?

  20   A   Yes.

  21   Q   And the other is Mr. El Hage's wife?

  22   A   Yes.

  23            MR. DRATEL:  I want to put this in evidence, your

  24   Honor, with the witness' handwriting on it.

  25            MR. FITZGERALD:  No objection, Judge.


   1            THE COURT:  Received.

   2            (Defendant's Exhibit WEHX-38 received in evidence)

   3   Q   Just read him the first couple of lines, the first two or

   4   three lines.

   5            (Pause)

   6            In the conversation they don't identify each other

   7   when they answer the phone, correct?

   8   Q   Is that correct?

   9   A   Yes.

  10   Q   But it's clear they knew each other well enough without

  11   even having to identify each other by name who the other

  12   person was on the call?

  13   A   Yes.

  14   Q   And you read that transcript, or you reviewed that

  15   transcript earlier, you heard the conversation earlier, I

  16   should say, and that's all about family matters in that

  17   conversation?

  18   A   Yes.

  19   Q   Between Mr. El Hage's family and children and Tahera's

  20   family in Mwanza?

  21   A   Yes.

  22   Q   And I just if I can go to page 5.  I'm sorry page -- no,

  23   not page 5.  Page 7 I think it is.

  24            That part of the conversation has a discussion about

  25   Mr. El Hage traveling to Mwanza either with you or to see you


   1   at a future date, is that correct?

   2   A   Yes.

   3   Q   When you were interviewed by agents of the FBI and the

   4   Kenyan police do you know whether you were shown any photos of

   5   Mr. El Hage?

   6   A   Did I?

   7   Q   Do you recall whether you were shown any photos of Mr. El

   8   Hage?

   9            (Witness consults interpreter)

  10   A   Yes, sir.

  11   Q   And you failed to recognize his photo, correct?

  12   A   Yes.

  13   Q   That because he had a full beard in the photograph?

  14   A   Not very.

  15   Q   Let me ask you this.  When you knew him in Kenya, did he

  16   have a full beard?

  17   A   Yes.

  18   Q   He had a full beard when you knew him in Kenya?

  19   A   Yes.

  20   Q   So you did not recognize that photo of him when it was

  21   shown to you by the FBI?

  22   A   I did recognize.

  23            THE COURT:  You're saying you did recognize?

  24            THE WITNESS:  Yes.

  25            THE COURT:  The witness said he did recognize.


   1            MR. DRATEL:  If I may approach, your Honor?

   2   Q   I'm going to show you what is marked as 3529-11, page 1.

   3   Could it be read and then look at number 19.

   4            (Pause)

   5            Now, on page 1 does that refresh your recollection

   6   whether or not you identified a photograph of Mr. El Hage for

   7   the FBI?

   8            (Witness consults interpreter)

   9   A   I don't remember, sir.

  10            THE COURT:  I didn't hear that.

  11            THE WITNESS:  I don't remember.

  12            THE COURT:  He doesn't remember.

  13   Q   Now, with respect to -- after, Mr. El Hage at some point

  14   left Kenya, correct?

  15   A   Yes.

  16   Q   And did not return?

  17   A   Yes.

  18   Q   And after Mr. El Hage left you remained in contact with

  19   Harun?

  20   A   Yes.

  21   Q   And at some point in -- withdrawn.

  22            Did Harun ask you to do him a favor at some point in

  23   April of 1998?

  24   A   Yes.

  25   Q   Was that to help him lease a residence?


   1   A   Yes.

   2   Q   Did he tell you why he needed your help?

   3   A   Yes.

   4   Q   What did he tell you?

   5   A   He told me he's not Kenyan citizen, and people if they

   6   know that he's not Kenyan, they can charge him more or they

   7   can ask for his ID card.

   8   Q   So you agreed to help him look?

   9   A   Yes.

  10   Q   And how long did it take you to find a place that you

  11   rented?

  12   A   I don't remember, but we did find three, four places.

  13   Q   Three, four days?

  14   A   No, we tried to find for few days.

  15            THE INTERPRETER:  Three or four places.

  16   A   Two, three places.

  17   Q   Was that within a short period of time?

  18   A   I don't remember.

  19   Q   Do you think it was more than a month or less than a

  20   month?

  21   A   I don't remember.

  22   Q   At the end of April you signed a lease?

  23   A   Yes.

  24   Q   And that was 43 Runda Estates?

  25   A   Yes.


   1   Q   And the lease began on May 1, 1998?

   2   A   Yes.

   3   Q   You didn't know that there was any wrong purpose for Harun

   4   renting that house?

   5   A   No.

   6   Q   Did there also come a point where there was a person named

   7   Jamal, not Jalal, but Jamal came to Nairobi and you had a

   8   conversation with Harun's wife?

   9   A   Yes.

  10   Q   And she told you that you shouldn't let Jamal come to

  11   Runda Estates?

  12   A   I don't exact his name, but a person was something like

  13   this name.

  14   Q   And Harun said to you that it was a former partner, that

  15   the person was a former partner, and he was concerned that he

  16   would want his car back?

  17   A   No.

  18   Q   Do you recall that?

  19   A   No.

  20            MR. DRATEL:  If I may approach, your Honor?

  21            THE COURT:  Yes.

  22   Q   I show you what is marked as 3529-12 and ask the

  23   highlighted portion be read to you.

  24            (Pause)

  25   A   He was his friend.


   1   Q   Did that refresh your recollection that Harun had told you

   2   that it was a former partner of his who he was afraid would

   3   come and try to get his car back, that was the reason?

   4   A   I don't know about car, but he didn't want to be in touch

   5   with him.

   6   Q   Harun did not want him to be in touch?

   7   A   Yes.

   8   Q   And wouldn't let him come to 43 Runda Estates?

   9   A   Yes.

  10   Q   After the embassy was bombed in Nairobi in August of 1998,

  11   your address book was left at Runda Estates; is that correct?

  12   A   Yes.

  13   Q   And a friend of yours who had been working at the house

  14   cleaning found it?

  15   A   Not friend.  A lady used to work with before, and she

  16   found it, and she took to Runda, she thought it's --

  17            THE COURT:  She took it?

  18            THE WITNESS:  She found book and she took it there.

  19            THE COURT:  She took it?

  20            THE WITNESS:  To Runda Estate.

  21   Q   Did she rip out a couple of pages that had your name in

  22   it?

  23   A   I don't remember, but I remember that I did it or.

  24   Q   Did she rip out something that would identify it as yours?

  25   A   Pardon?


   1   Q   Did she rip out something that would identify it as yours?

   2            (Witness consults with interpreter)

   3   A   I don't remember, sir.

   4            THE INTERPRETER:  I don't remember.

   5   Q   Do I have 3912?  Is that up there?

   6            THE INTERPRETER:  Here.

   7            MR. DRATEL:  Your Honor, if I may approach?

   8            THE COURT:  Yes.

   9            (Pause)

  10            THE INTERPRETER:  He says maybe he took the page out.

  11   He's not very sure.

  12   Q   You told the, the pages were taken out in order to try to

  13   hide the fact that it identified you as the owner of the

  14   address book, correct, and that was because it was a horrible

  15   event that had occurred, and either your friend or you,

  16   whoever did it, didn't want you to be connected to it,

  17   correct?

  18            Even though you hadn't done anything wrong?

  19            I'm sorry.  You've got to answer the first question.

  20   And either you or your friends, whoever took the pages out,

  21   didn't want you to be connected to such a horrible event, even

  22   though you hadn't done anything wrong yourself?

  23   A   Yes.

  24            MR. DRATEL:  Nothing further, your Honor.

  25            THE COURT:  Mr. Ricco, defendant Odeh.


   1            MR. RICCO:  Thank you, your Honor.


   3   BY MR. RICCO:

   4   Q   Good afternoon, Mr. Juma.  I'd like to start just where

   5   Mr. Dratel left off, and I want to talk about the book that

   6   the pages were ripped out of.  Your former housekeeper found a

   7   book, isn't that right?

   8   A   Yes.

   9   Q   She looked through the book and saw information related to

  10   yourself, right?

  11   A   Yes.

  12   Q   She also saw information in the book that related to

  13   Harun, isn't that correct?

  14   A   I don't know.

  15   Q   You don't know.

  16   A   No.  I beg your pardon?

  17   Q   She thought that the book was Harun's book, isn't that

  18   right?

  19   A   She thought it's Harun's book, yes.

  20   Q   Then she took the book and gave the book to the gardener

  21   for Runda Estates?

  22   A   She used to work there before so she knows him.

  23   Q   And she gave the gardener the book, right?

  24   A   Yes.

  25   Q   And then the gardener took the book and put the book down


   1   in the house to make it look like it was left behind, is that

   2   right?

   3   A   Not in the house.  It was found in the garden.  It was

   4   found in the garden.  I have heard from one of the FBI told me

   5   that they found this book in the garden.

   6   Q   Yes.  But the book was planted in the garden so that it

   7   would be found, isn't that right?

   8   A   She thought, they thought or she or he, they thought it's

   9   Fasal's book.  They thought it is Fasal's book.

  10   Q   So they planted the book to make it seem like he had left

  11   the book at Runda Estates, right?

  12   A   Yes.

  13   Q   But the book was never left at Runda Estates, isn't that

  14   right?

  15   A   It was.  They have told me it was found there.

  16   Q   Excuse me?

  17   A   They have told me it was found there.

  18   Q   Didn't you tell the FBI when you were interviewed back on

  19   September 6th that they put the book there to make it look

  20   like it was left behind there?  Didn't you tell that to the

  21   FBI?

  22   A   No.

  23   Q   You never told them that?

  24   A   No.

  25   Q   Okay.  Now, the book was really your book.


   1   A   Yes, sir.

   2   Q   And so when the housekeeper found it she ripped the pages

   3   out of the book that had any reference to you, isn't that

   4   right?

   5   A   That might be me.  I removed the pages.

   6   Q   You took the pages out?

   7   A   I don't remember, but, yes.

   8   Q   So after you took the pages out did you give the book to

   9   be planted at the Runda Estates?

  10   A   No, no.  I kept in my house.  It was in my house.

  11   Q   Didn't you tell the FBI when you were interviewed by them

  12   on September 6th, and again on September 7th of 1998, that the

  13   housekeeper ripped the page out of the book?  Didn't you tell

  14   them that?  Yes or no?

  15   A   I don't remember.

  16   Q   Okay.  But you do remember if you ripped the page out of

  17   the book and put it in your house that you didn't leave that

  18   book at Runda Estates, isn't that right?

  19            (Witness consults with interpreter)

  20   A   No, I have not kept that.

  21            THE INTERPRETER:  He didn't put it in the garden.

  22            MR. RICCO:  Interpreter?

  23            THE INTERPRETER:  He did not put the book in the

  24   garden.

  25   Q   Other people put the book in the garden to make it seem as


   1   though Harun had left a very valuable document behind.  Isn't

   2   that right?

   3            (Witness consults with interpreter)

   4            THE INTERPRETER:  He doesn't know why they put it

   5   there.

   6   Q   Didn't you tell the FBI when they interviewed you in

   7   September of 1998 that they put it behind to help the

   8   investigation of the bombing?

   9   A   I don't remember.

  10   Q   You never said that to the FBI?

  11   A   I don't remember.

  12   Q   You don't remember or you didn't?

  13   A   No, I don't remember.

  14            MR. RICCO:  Can I approach the witness with 3529-5,

  15   in particular page 7.  With the assistance of the interpreter

  16   can that paragraph that's highlighted be read to him.  I'll

  17   ask if that refreshes his recollection.

  18            (Pause)

  19            MR. RICCO:  Excuse me?

  20            THE INTERPRETER:  He says --

  21            MR. RICCO:  I would like to ask a question.  Has he

  22   had an opportunity to read it?

  23            THE WITNESS:  Yes.

  24            THE COURT:  To hear it.

  25            MR. RICCO:  To hear it, I'm sorry, your Honor.  Okay.


   1   Q   Does that, having had that document read to you, does that

   2   document refresh your recollection as to whether or not you

   3   told the FBI when they interviewed you that the gardener hid

   4   the book in a place where it could be found?

   5   A   If I've told them, then I have, yes.

   6   Q   Okay.  And does it refresh your recollection that you told

   7   the FBI that the housekeeper ripped the page out of the book?

   8   A   Don't remember that.

   9   Q   Okay.

  10   A   If I have said, then I have.

  11   Q   All right.

  12   A   Yes.

  13   Q   And that this was done, this planting of the book, so that

  14   it could be found, this was done to help the investigation of

  15   the bombing.  Isn't that right?

  16   A   To?

  17   Q   To help the investigation of the bombing?

  18   A   No, no.

  19   Q   It was not?

  20   A   Not to help them.  It was to help myself because I was not

  21   a Kenyan, and legally, legal, but I was illegal there so I

  22   wanted to be on myself, because whatever they have done it was

  23   not --

  24   Q   Are you sure that you didn't tell them to put the book --

  25   A   No.


   1   Q   -- since it was going to help you?

   2   A   No.

   3   Q   Okay.

   4            MR. RICCO:  I'd like to approach, your Honor, with

   5   3549-12, page 12, and I'd like the interpreter to read the

   6   last sentence here.

   7            (Pause)

   8            THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, to help the FBI.

   9   Q   Okay.  So reading, having that document read to you, does

  10   it refresh your recollection that one of the things that you

  11   told the FBI when they interviewed you was that the people

  12   planted the book there so that they can help the FBI's

  13   investigation of the bombing?

  14            (Witness consults interpreter)

  15            THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  It was the house girl told

  16   him that.

  17   A   Yes, so they can.

  18   Q   Is that a yes?

  19   A   Yes.

  20            THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.

  21   A   So they can, that book might be helpful for FBI people.

  22   Q   And, in fact, that book was not left there by Harun, was

  23   it?

  24   A   Not by Harun.

  25   Q   No?


   1   A   No.

   2   Q   But it was made to look that way, right?

   3   A   It was?

   4   Q   It was made to look that way, right?

   5            (Witness consults with interpreter)

   6   A   That might be.

   7   Q   Might be.  Now I want to ask you about the car accident.

   8            THE COURT:  I didn't hear the witness' answer.

   9            THE INTERPRETER:  It might be.  It might be.

  10   Q   Now, you told us that you were in a car accident and

  11   somebody paid a bribe to a policeman over a car accident?  Is

  12   that what you told us?

  13   A   Yes.

  14   Q   And where did this happen?  Did it happen in Kenya?

  15   A   Yes.

  16   Q   Is this what people do when they're in car accidents in

  17   Kenya?

  18   A   Sometimes.

  19   Q   They pay bribes to the police officers?

  20   A   Sometimes, yes.

  21   Q   Do they also plant evidence in investigations?

  22            (Witness consults with interpreter)

  23   A   I don't know.

  24   Q   You don't know or no?

  25            (Witness consults interpreter)


   1            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection.

   2            MR. RICCO:  I'm sorry, Judge.

   3            THE COURT:  Sustained.

   4            MR. RICCO:  Sorry?

   5   Q   The answer is?

   6            THE COURT:  I sustained the objection.

   7            THE INTERPRETER:  He's not understanding.

   8            MR. RICCO:  Judge, I'll move on.

   9   Q   You knew a man named Harun, right?

  10   A   What?

  11   Q   You knew a man named Harun?

  12   A   Yes.

  13   Q   And in around April of 1998 Harun asked you to do him a

  14   favor?

  15   A   Yes, sir.

  16   Q   And the way you had met him is that Mr. Jalal when he was

  17   outside of Kenya sometimes he would call you and ask you to go

  18   pick up money from people?

  19   A   Yes.

  20   Q   Right?

  21   A   Yes.

  22   Q   And you did this a couple of times, right?

  23   A   Yes.

  24   Q   And one of the people that you pick up money from was this

  25   fellow Harun?


   1   A   Yes.

   2   Q   And one of the things that Mr. Jalal told you was when you

   3   go pick this money up, don't ask them any questions, right?

   4   A   Not any question.  But don't let him know who you are.

   5   Q   Don't tell him about the family, right?

   6   A   Yes.

   7   Q   And don't tell him how we know each other, that means you

   8   and Mr. Jalal, right?

   9   A   He wanted anybody to know that he's got married to my

  10   sister.

  11   Q   But he told you to make sure you count the money though,

  12   right?

  13   A   Yes.

  14   Q   All right.  Now, when Harun approached you in April he

  15   wanted you to help him get a house?

  16   A   Yes.

  17   Q   And he was trying to make it seem like he wanted to get a

  18   house so that he could bring his family over from the Camerose

  19   to live with him in Kenya, right?

  20   A   Yes.

  21   Q   That's what he told you?

  22   A   What?

  23   Q   That's what Harun told you, right?

  24   A   Yes.

  25   Q   And he was pretending with you, a little bit, wasn't he?


   1   Withdrawn.  I'll withdraw that question.

   2   A   I didn't know.

   3   Q   And so you went out to look for a house that would be

   4   large enough to accommodate his family, right?

   5   A   Yes.

   6   Q   And you looked at several houses?

   7   A   Yes.

   8   Q   And he wanted a house that had a very high wall and a very

   9   big garage?

  10   A   Yes.

  11   Q   Right?

  12   A   Yes.

  13   Q   And you didn't know what he really wanted to use that

  14   house for, did you?

  15   A   No.

  16   Q   And you signed a lease for that house?

  17   A   Yes.

  18   Q   Right?

  19   A   Yes.

  20   Q   Your signature is on that lease?

  21   A   Yes.

  22   Q   You negotiated for that house, right?  You negotiated for

  23   the rental price of the house, right?

  24   A   Yes.

  25   Q   And the reason why Harun told you that he needed you to do


   1   the negotiations is because he had to have somebody who was

   2   familiar with Kenya?

   3   A   Yes.

   4   Q   So that they could get a better price?

   5   A   Yes.

   6   Q   So to find somebody familiar with Kenya he called upon

   7   you?

   8   A   Yes.

   9   Q   Right?

  10   A   Yes.

  11   Q   I think Mr. Dratel asked you a question a few seconds ago

  12   about Harun not wanting certain persons to come to Runda

  13   Estates.  Is that true?

  14            (Witness consults with interpreter)

  15            THE INTERPRETER:  After his brother-in-law passed

  16   away, yes.

  17   Q   And I take it that you're not the only person in the

  18   country of Kenya that Mr. Harun knew?

  19   A   No, not only me.

  20   Q   Okay.  And after the house was negotiated Mr. Harun left

  21   for about a week, right?

  22   A   Yes.

  23   Q   And then when he came back he had his wife and his

  24   children?

  25   A   Yes.


   1   Q   When he came back they didn't go into the house.  The

   2   children stayed with you for a little while, isn't that

   3   correct?

   4   A   Yes.

   5   Q   Because he said he had to go to Mombasa somewhere, isn't

   6   that right?

   7   A   I don't remember, he might not be in Kenya.

   8   Q   Okay.  But you don't know where he went but he definitely

   9   left for about a week?

  10   A   Yes.

  11   Q   And he came back?

  12   A   Yes.

  13   Q   And towards the end of June his father-in-law showed up

  14   from the Camrose and his father-in-law stayed at the house?

  15   A   Yes.

  16   Q   And I take it that you had been to the house maybe a

  17   couple of times?

  18   A   Yes.

  19   Q   Is that right?

  20   A   Yes.

  21   Q   Okay.  Now, before the day of the bombing Harun's family

  22   left the country, right?

  23   A   Before?

  24            (Witness consults with interpreter)

  25            MR. FITZGERALD:  Objection to form.


   1            MR. RICCO:  I'm sorry.  Okay.  I'll rephrase the

   2   question.

   3   Q   The night before the explosion Harun's wife and children

   4   left the country, right?

   5   A   Not before the bombing.  The same day of bombing.

   6   Q   Okay.  And you know that because your sister took them to

   7   the airport, right?

   8   A   Yes.

   9   Q   After the bombing Harun showed up at your house?

  10   A   Yes.

  11   Q   His eyes were a little red, right?  You remember that?

  12   A   I don't remember now.

  13   Q   Okay.  But you know he came to your house?

  14   A   Yes.

  15   Q   And, in fact, he stayed at your house after the bombing?

  16   A   Yes.

  17   Q   And I think he stayed there for about a week or so?

  18   A   Pardon?

  19   Q   For about one week?

  20   A   Yes.

  21   Q   And during that time period when he was at your house he

  22   would discuss the event of the bombing.  Isn't that right, how

  23   terrible it was, right?

  24   A   I don't remember.

  25   Q   No?


   1   A   I don't remember.

   2   Q   Did he ever discuss the bombing when he was at your house

   3   after it happened?

   4   A   Yeah, ordinary talk.

   5   Q   Yes.

   6   A   Yes.

   7   Q   But at no time did he say to you, you know, back at Runda

   8   Estates we built a bomb that went off.  He never told you

   9   that?

  10   A   No.

  11   Q   And he was at your house for a whole week?

  12   A   Yes.

  13   Q   Right?

  14   A   Yes.

  15   Q   Seven days?

  16   A   Yes.

  17   Q   Seven nights?

  18   A   Yes.

  19   Q   Plenty of conversation?

  20   A   Yes.

  21   Q   And he kept that from you?

  22   A   Yes.

  23   Q   No question about that in your mind, that he never told

  24   you about that?

  25   A   No.


   1   Q   Now, after that time, after a while he then left, he left

   2   I think, do you know when he left to where he went to?

   3   A   To Morocco, something like that.

   4   Q   But you know that he left at some point?

   5   A   Yes.

   6   Q   And afterwards you were questioned by the investigators?

   7   A   Yes.

   8   Q   And you were worried, weren't you?

   9   A   Yes.

  10   Q   You were worried because you had negotiated for that

  11   house?

  12   A   Yes.

  13   Q   And you had put your name on that paper?

  14   A   Yes.

  15   Q   Right?

  16   A   Yes.

  17   Q   And, in fact, the night before the bombing you were at the

  18   house, isn't that right?

  19   A   Yes.

  20   Q   You went to the house and you knocked on the door?

  21   A   Yes.

  22   Q   And you had, you waited for a long time?

  23   A   Almost 15, 20 minutes.

  24   Q   In fact, you waited so long you were getting ready to

  25   leave?


   1   A   Yes.

   2   Q   And all of a sudden, Harun comes out to the gate?

   3   A   Yes.

   4   Q   And he tells you, I got some people inside but you can

   5   come in so you can see my father.  Isn't that right?

   6   A   Yes.  Because the plan to go there it was like the family

   7   was leaving the second day.  So to come and say bye bye to

   8   them.

   9   Q   That's right.  And when you came there, you came there

  10   with your sister?

  11   A   Yes.

  12   Q   So it was a family, that's what was on your mind was that

  13   it was a family gathering?

  14   A   Yes.

  15   Q   And when you came into the house Harun took you to a

  16   particular room, the room was dark?

  17   A   Yes.

  18   Q   You were seated on the floor?

  19   A   It was upstairs.

  20   Q   Right?  But even though the room was dark you could hear

  21   other people talking in Arabic?

  22   A   When we got in the sitting room you can hear people

  23   talking.

  24   Q   That's right.

  25   A   But when I went to the room I could have not heard them.


   1   Q   All right.  But when Harun told you that there were other

   2   people in the house, when you got in the house you could hear

   3   their voices but you couldn't see their faces?

   4   A   No.

   5   Q   And Harun didn't introduce you to any of the people that

   6   he said were inside the house, did he?

   7   A   What?

   8            MR. RICCO:  Interpreter.

   9   A   No, no, sir.

  10            (Witness consults with the interpreter)

  11   Q   And normally in Islamic culture you are introduced to the

  12   people in the home when you come in the home, right?

  13   A   Yes.

  14   Q   But on this day Harun kept these people secreted from you?

  15   A   Yes, and told me they are on the phone, and they're

  16   talking on the phone, my friend.  And he took me up to, so my

  17   sister they went to the wife's family, Harun's wife.

  18   Q   You got a chance to see his father?

  19   A   Yes.

  20   Q   You spent some time with him and you left?

  21   A   Yes.

  22   Q   Now, when the investigation started in the case you were

  23   worried because you had spent a lot of time with Mr. Harun,

  24   isn't that correct?

  25   A   Yes.


   1   Q   And you were concerned that somebody would have said he

   2   spent time with him, he signed his name to the lease, he must

   3   be involved, right?

   4   A   Not because of that.  It was because of I was Tanzanian.

   5   Q   Okay.  That's why you were worried about that book?

   6   A   Yes.

   7   Q   Right?

   8   A   Yes.

   9   Q   Now, when you first met with the agents and you sat down

  10   with them, you didn't tell them about the book the first time

  11   you met with them, did you?

  12   A   I don't remember.

  13   Q   No.  You told them about the book much later, isn't that

  14   correct?

  15   A   I don't remember.

  16   Q   You don't remember.

  17            I have just a few more questions, your Honor.

  18            After Harun left the country, he left you his truck?

  19   A   Yes.

  20   Q   And you washed out the truck?

  21   A   Yes.

  22   Q   And swept the truck out, right?

  23   A   Yes.

  24   Q   And you did these things even though you didn't have

  25   anything to do with what the truck was used for?


   1            (Witness consults with interpreter.

   2            MR. RICCO:  I'll rephrase the question, your Honor.

   3            You washed the truck and you swept the truck out?

   4   A   Yes.

   5   Q   And even though you did those things, you still had

   6   nothing to do with the bombing of the embassy in Kenya?

   7   A   No, not at all.

   8   Q   I think that you once said that you have a clean heart?

   9   A   Yes.

  10   Q   When it comes to what happened at the Kenyan embassy,

  11   isn't that right?

  12   A   Yes.

  13   Q   Now, Harun tricked you, isn't that right?

  14   A   You say that, yes.

  15   Q   Right?

  16   A   Yes.

  17   Q   He took advantage of your friendship?

  18   A   Yes.

  19   Q   Your relationship with him?

  20   A   Yes.

  21   Q   And he put you in a situation where you were fearful that

  22   you would be prosecuted for the bombing, isn't that correct?

  23            (Witness consults with interpreter)

  24   A   Yes.

  25   Q   And your housekeeper was worried.  That's why she put the


   1   book in the yard so that the investigation could go towards

   2   Harun and away from you, isn't that right?

   3   A   She thought the book is his.

   4            MR. RICCO:  I have no other questions.  Thank you

   5   very much.

   6            MR. FITZGERALD:  I'll be brief, Judge.



   9   Q   Mr. Juma?

  10   A   Yes.

  11   Q   Have you ever been trained at any of the camps in

  12   Afghanistan known as Farouq camp, Khaldan Camp or Khalid camp?

  13   A   No.

  14            MR. COHN:  Objection, beyond the scope.

  15   Q   Have you ever received explosive training?

  16            MR. COHN:  Objection.

  17            THE COURT:  Overruled.

  18   Q   Have you ever received intelligence training?

  19            MR. COHN:  Objection.

  20   A   No.

  21   Q   Have you ever received training in how to conduct a

  22   terrorist operation?

  23   A   No.

  24            MR. COHN:  Objection.

  25   Q   Have you ever --


   1            THE COURT:  If you have an objection to the line of

   2   questions --

   3            MR. COHN:  I do, your Honor, but I believe I have to

   4   voice it after each question unless your Honor rules that I

   5   don't have to.

   6            THE COURT:  You don't have to.

   7            MR. COHN:  Very good.

   8   Q   Have you ever made bayat, B-A-Y-A-T to anyone?

   9   A   Bayat?

  10            (Witness consults with interpreter)

  11   Q   Strike that.  Do you know what bayat is?

  12            (Witness consults with interpreter)

  13            THE INTERPRETER:  No.

  14   A   No.

  15   Q   Have you ever joined al Qaeda?

  16            MR. COHN:  Objection as to form, your Honor.

  17   Q   Yes or no?

  18            THE COURT:  Overruled.

  19            THE INTERPRETER:  I don't know what it is.

  20   Q   So when you spent time with Fazhul or Harun at 43 Runda in

  21   the week before and after the bombing did you have any idea

  22   that Harun was a member of al Qaeda?

  23   A   Al Qaeda?  What is it?  No.

  24            MR. COHN:  Objection as to form, your Honor.

  25            MR. FITZGERALD:  Nothing further.


   1            MR. RICCO:  Your Honor, I just have a few.


   3   BY MR. RICCO:

   4   Q   You never received any explosives training, isn't that

   5   right?

   6   A   No.

   7   Q   Right?  You don't know anything about al Qaeda, right?

   8   A   No.

   9   Q   You never had any type of military training, isn't that

  10   right?

  11   A   No.

  12   Q   You didn't know who Haran's, what Haran belonged to, isn't

  13   that right?

  14   A   Who's he?  Haran?

  15   Q   Harun.  Harun belonged to.  You didn't know?

  16   A   No.

  17   Q   And even though you never had any of that training, didn't

  18   know nothing about bayat, you were still afraid, wasn't you?

  19   A   Yes, and we are like this in Kenya.

  20   Q   Yes.  Isn't that right?

  21   A   Everybody, everything.

  22            MR. RICCO:  Thank you.  No further questions.

  23            MR. FITZGERALD:  Just one.

  24            THE COURT:  Yes.



   1   Q   You were afraid, but had you done anything wrong?

   2   A   Pardon?

   3   Q   Had you done anything wrong?

   4   A   No.

   5            MR. FITZGERALD:  Thanks.

   6            THE COURT:  The witness may step down.

   7            (Witness excused)

   8            THE COURT:  Mr. Schmidt, anything further?

   9            MR. SCHMIDT:  Not today, your Honor.

  10            THE COURT:  That's it for today.

  11            All right.  Ladies and gentlemen, if your look of

  12   pleasure is, are we going to quit for the day?  Yes.  I don't

  13   know if you are going to be pleased when I also tell you we're

  14   not going to sit tomorrow.  Some of you are.  And that's

  15   because after consulting with the attorneys they're satisfied

  16   that in the long run it will save time.

  17            So we are going to adjourn until Monday morning.

  18   Have a pleasant weekend.  Please remember not to read or

  19   listen or watch anything to do with this case.

  20            I'll take a five-minute recess, and then I want to

  21   speak to all counsel.

  22            (Recess)

  23            (Continued on next page)




   1            (Jury not present)

   2            THE COURT:  The gist of the conference that I had

   3   with defense counsel is that the defendants' case may take

   4   less time than had previously been estimated, which at one

   5   point led Mr. Cohn to say we may be summing up next week, and

   6   to venture the suggestion that if that was to be the case to

   7   let the government know that.  So the government is advised

   8   that that may happen, which I think makes it appropriate for

   9   us to review all the open matters that we have.  The

  10   government was going to review the indictment to see whether

  11   there are matters which could be deleted.

  12            MR. FITZGERALD:  I apologize, your Honor.  We did

  13   that.  I didn't realize that we didn't send it out yesterday.

  14   We will get it out tonight.  Pruning overt acts and --

  15            THE COURT:  Pruning overt acts?

  16            MR. FITZGERALD:  Yes.  We will be dismissing Count 6

  17   and pruning overt acts.

  18            THE COURT:  Then I would like the defendants prior to

  19   the Monday conference, charging conference, to address their

  20   comments or their objections to the proposed redacted

  21   indictment.  When we are all finished with this I will hear --

  22            MR. COHN:  I just wanted to say, you will get it by

  23   Friday at the latest.

  24            THE COURT:  Fine.  And I am going to get a memo on

  25   the assault on the guard in the Al-'Owhali death case assuming


   1   that there is bifurcation.

   2            What is the status with respect to calling of Gaudin

   3   and this hearsay issue?  Last time we raised it there was some

   4   suggestion that it might be consensually resolved.

   5            MR. FITZGERALD:  That is still being discussed.

   6            MR. RICCO:  That is going to be resolved.

   7            THE COURT:  Assuming the Gaudin matter is resolved,

   8   the government still contemplates calling a Somalia witness?

   9            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, yes, but we haven't

  10   heard from the defense yet on whether they are calling --

  11   there has been a shifting target.  We haven't heard the whole

  12   defense case.

  13            THE COURT:  Assume you have.

  14            MR. FITZGERALD:  Assuming we do, the witness is an

  15   hour.  It's a couple hours, not days.

  16            THE COURT:  But he will be available?

  17            MR. FITZGERALD:  Yes, we will make him available.

  18            THE COURT:  Monday, Tuesday?

  19            MR. FITZGERALD:  Judge, I will look.  I didn't know

  20   the schedule was changing.

  21            THE COURT:  That's the whole purpose of this, is to

  22   alert you that the timetable may be faster than had previously

  23   been anticipated.

  24            MR. SCHMIDT:  Your Honor, if I may, I thought that

  25   the government -- generally the government puts on their case


   1   and then we go.  So if their witness is going to be very

   2   brief, why don't they do their witness first on Monday and

   3   then we will follow with our witness.  Because we have some

   4   discovery, I assume we will have the rest of the discovery

   5   this week.

   6            MR. FITZGERALD:  Your Honor, it was delayed for Mr.

   7   Schmidt to await discovery.  My last discussion with the

   8   Department of Defense was they got the high priority items out

   9   which we gave to Mr. Schmidt, but the scope could take months.

  10            THE COURT:  Can that witness be available Monday?

  11            MR. FITZGERALD:  I can find out and advise the court

  12   and counsel tomorrow in writing.

  13            THE COURT:  If he can, the suggestion is that he

  14   would be the first order of business on Monday.

  15            MR. FITZGERALD:  If he were, your Honor, I take it we

  16   will not split direct and cross-examination.  Counsel will be

  17   prepared to cross-examine.

  18            MR. SCHMIDT:  If I get the relevant material within

  19   the next couple of days, certainly I will be.

  20            THE COURT:  Memo from counsel for El Hage on venue, I

  21   am told I will have that tomorrow.

  22            I hope to have, assuming that I get the government's

  23   proposed redacted indictment later this evening --

  24            MR. FITZGERALD:  Yes, Judge, it will go out tonight.

  25            THE COURT:  I would hope by the close of business


   1   tomorrow to have a draft two of the court's charge.  I think I

   2   labeled the previous one draft one, and I dated it.  I repeat

   3   that if counsel are interested in having maximum input into

   4   the charge, that it would be helpful if I could get written

   5   comments, objections or proposed additional charges before the

   6   weekend.

   7            Yes, Mr. Cohn.

   8            MR. COHN:  Two things, the last first.  I thought,

   9   and I apologize for obviously misunderstanding, but I thought

  10   our comments to draft one were essentially due on Friday, and

  11   they will be outdated by your having done draft two.

  12            THE COURT:  I would think if you have them ready you

  13   should submit them, because I think the difference between

  14   draft one and draft two may not touch on matters as to which

  15   you have comment.

  16            MR. COHN:  I will.

  17            THE COURT:  We are all losing a lot of sleep, but

  18   obviously the more we can lighten each other's load the better

  19   it will be.  When I say losing sleep, you know, of course, I

  20   am talking about my law clerks.

  21            MR. COHN:  At my age it doesn't matter.  The less I

  22   get, the more it prolongs other things.

  23            The other thing, Ms. Gasiorowski suggests, and I

  24   believe it is only fair, I believe the government's proof as

  25   to Somalia, which I understand they are offering, is not


   1   probative, or not very probative of the charges in the

   2   indictment and highly unnecessarily prejudicial under Rule

   3   403, and at some point I want to be heard about that and I

   4   guess it is only fair to do that before we hear the witness.

   5   I will be glad to do that tomorrow or sometime before the

   6   witness comes in.  As I read the indictment, the testimony

   7   that they are offering does really not meet those issues.

   8            THE COURT:  You want to respond to that now?

   9            MR. FITZGERALD:  No, Judge, and if we are going to

  10   deal with that issue I think we should tee up the issue of the

  11   Somalia expert that the defense is intending to call, all at

  12   one time.

  13            THE COURT:  I am trying to suggest to you that that

  14   may never happen.

  15            MR. FITZGERALD:  OK.  No one had told us that.

  16            MR. COHN:  I will be glad to address it in back

  17   today.  I just don't want to spread this all out on the record

  18   with the press here, quite frankly.

  19            THE COURT:  Why don't we put on the agenda for Monday

  20   as part of the charging conference defendant Al-'Owhali's

  21   motion to strike the allegations with respect to Somalia from

  22   the redacted indictment.  I take it that the redacted

  23   indictment includes Somalia.

  24            MR. FITZGERALD:  Yes, Judge.

  25            MR. COHN:  That's a way to do it.  I just don't want


   1   to surprise the court, that's all, and cause undue delay as

   2   opposed to some necessary delay.

   3            THE COURT:  I appreciate that.

   4            Is there anything I have omitted?  Anything that is

   5   open?

   6            MR. FITZGERALD:  Yes, Judge.  On scheduling, I

   7   strongly feel that to require the government to sum up next

   8   week would be unfair in light of the circumstances --

   9            THE COURT:  It is highly unlikely.  It is highly

  10   unlikely.  Why don't we play it that the government will have

  11   at least two days' notice.

  12            MR. FITZGERALD:  Judge, in all seriousness, two days'

  13   notice is way too late.  We have been up all night many a

  14   night and we --

  15            THE COURT:  All right, fair enough, but as soon as a

  16   week from Monday.

  17            MR. FITZGERALD:  Yes, Judge.  Thank you.

  18            THE COURT:  Anything else?  Then I will be in

  19   chambers tomorrow if there is anything that requires my

  20   attention.

  21            MR. RICCO:  Your Honor, tomorrow morning at 9:30 Mr.

  22   Odeh would like to be in the courtroom to go over evidence.

  23   The government will have evidence, if the marshals will have

  24   Mr. Odeh in the courtroom.

  25            THE COURT:  You want me to instruct the marshals that


   1   Mr. Odeh should be brought to the courtroom tomorrow at 9:30?

   2            MR. RICCO:  Yes.

   3            THE COURT:  They are so instructed.

   4            MR. WILFORD:  Excuse me, your Honor.  Can I see you

   5   for a brief moment?

   6            THE COURT:  Sure.

   7            (Pause)

   8            THE COURT:  There is one other matter we want to put

   9   on the record while the defendants are still present.  Mr.

  10   Wilford, you have advised me that both you and Mr. Ricco have

  11   an appearance required in the Court of Appeals at 9:30 on

  12   Monday but that Mr. Herman will be here.

  13            MR. WILFORD:  That is correct, your Honor.

  14            THE COURT:  Is it agreeable to Mr. Odeh that the

  15   matters go forward so long as Mr. Herman is present?

  16            MR. WILFORD:  Your Honor, I am sorry.  Mr. Odeh

  17   doesn't have his headphones on.  Can we have a moment so he

  18   can hear what the court inquired?

  19            THE COURT:  Yes.

  20            DEFENDANT ODEH:  No problem, no objection.

  21            THE COURT:  That is agreeable to you, Mr. Odeh, so

  22   that we can go forward as long as Mr. Herman is here?

  23            DEFENDANT ODEH:  No problem.

  24            (Adjourned until Monday, April 23, 2001, at 10:00

  25   a.m.)



   2                        INDEX OF EXAMINATION

   3   Witness                    D      X      RD     RX

   4   MOHAMED ALI ODEH..........4225   4246    4274

   5   ASHIF MOHAMED JUMA........4278   4280    4283    4284

   6   SIKANDER JUMA...........  4286   4314    4333    4335

   7                         DEFENDANT EXHIBITS

   8   Exhibit No.                                     Received

   9    WEHX-JJJ ...................................4226

  10    WEX-W35 and WEX-W35-T ......................4234

  11    WEHXW37, WEHXW38 and WEHXW39 ...............4295

  12    WEHX-38 ....................................4307














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